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foreign

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things about pizza gate is that it

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really cuts through a lot of the

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ambiguity with the evil kind of moral

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good bad question because sex crimes

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against children are evil clearly evil

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so in that way it really makes clear the

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question what is the nature of this evil

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is this evil something we just cook up

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in our Consciousness is an illusion

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brain or does this evil tell us

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something about this hierarchical nature

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of Consciousness

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had I not been undercover had I walked

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past them and heard these men talking

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like that I would have thrown them off

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the railing I mean it was so disgusting

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it demonstrated to me that parents were

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providing eye candy for these pedophiles

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and these these sick perverts I I don't

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know how anyone

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just as you had said earlier Alex how

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can anyone say that is not evil

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stay with us for skeptico

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[Music]

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics I'm your host Alex sakaris

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and the topic of today's show is not one

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that's easy to talk about and not one

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that you'd expect to hear on a show

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about Consciousness science I know that

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because I get plenty of emails asking me

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when I'm going to get back to nde and

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PSY research but hey there's an

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important through line here that I'd

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like to explore with you that really

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gets to the heart of what this show is

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all about because my primary finding if

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you will from 350 episodes of skeptico

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is that we are more that is we're not

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biological robots in a meaningless

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universe that science tells us we are we

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are more so really all questions beyond

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that are about what that more is what

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that spirituality is what that extended

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Consciousness is where did it come from

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what is its purpose how does it function

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in our life and in our world and while

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sure these are the deepest most profound

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questions that you could ask that people

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have been asking for thousands of years

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and it's not like we're gonna figure it

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out on a couple of podcast episodes the

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topic is I think the most important

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topic we can talk about and in this

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ongoing conversation that we're having I

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think it's nice to keep it fresh and

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relevant with new things that are

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happening and look at how those might

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inform or further our understanding of

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what's really going on and pizzagate

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that is the controversy arounding the

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alleged occult themed and pedophilia

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themed emails of Hillary Clinton's top

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aide John podesta are certainly fresh

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and I would suggest that they're very

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relevant to some of these skeptical

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questions I was just talking about in

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some really important ways let me

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explain first of all the thing that

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really attracts me to looking at this is

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that it drives us right to the core of

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the evil question and this is something

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I've been hammering on a little bit and

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there's some interesting back and forth

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with some of my guests on that but let

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me recap for a minute what I mean when I

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say the evil question so step back and

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look at ndes for a minute so you have a

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near-death experience science and the

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conclusion is consciousness survives

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death that's the finding every

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significant near-death experience

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researchers come to that conclusion the

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data has come to that conclusion

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hundreds and hundreds of published

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studies you've got to be there if you've

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really dug into the data followed the

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data where it leads but the next

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question about nde research is

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what does the experience seem to be

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telling us about the nature of this

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Consciousness that survives death and

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notice how I said that because that's

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really the rub here because now we're

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saying with the nde research about this

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experience is that this is an experience

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that people had when they were dead or

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at least they had when their brain was

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so severely compromised that we can't

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really even talk about what kind of

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Consciousness experience they would have

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been having inside of our existing

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neuromodle about how the brain works so

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with that we take a look at the

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near-death experience experience and we

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say what can we start saying about it

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and one of the conclusions that seems

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pretty clear now not everyone sees it

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this way but it sure as heck seems

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pretty clear there appears to be a

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hierarchy to this Consciousness there's

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this incredible love there's this good

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there's light there's also regret

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there's pain there's Darkness now again

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for the atheistic science types they

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were able to to dance around the good

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bad light dark stuff as long as they

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could tie it back to well that's part of

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the human condition that's what the

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brain is just cooking up but when we

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stepped over and said no wait a minute

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these are experiences that are people

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are pulling back from a non-brained

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state we are suddenly propelled right in

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the middle of this spirituality thing

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that I was saying at the beginning and

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as we know for the atheistic science

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types this is a call to the Battle

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Stations put down this nde research or

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we're going to wind up with all the

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churchy folks stepping forward with

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their big I Told You So and a renewing

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of the science versus religion battle

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that we've been having for hundreds and

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hundreds of years

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so back to Pete's gate one of the great

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things about pizza gate is that it

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really cuts through a lot of the

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ambiguity with the evil kind of moral

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good bad question because sex crimes

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against children are evil clearly evil

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so in that way it really makes clear the

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question what is the nature of this evil

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is this evil something we just cook up

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in our Consciousness is an illusion

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brain or does this evil tell us

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something about this hierarchical nature

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of consciousness

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so that's one of the reasons Pizza gate

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is so interesting to me and I think so

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relevant to skeptico but the other

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reason it's interesting to me from a

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skeptical perspective has to do with

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this line we've been following with

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regard to conspiracy and again this is

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something that freaks people out when I

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talk about conspiracy and conspiracy

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theory to me it's just a natural

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consequence of doing these 350 shows I

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mean go all the way back to the

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beginning where I'm interviewing Dean

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Raiden about why Steve Novella and

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prominent scientists like Ray Hyman are

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lying about his Psy research well bang

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against that problem long enough like we

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have and you're forced to consider the

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possibility that there's a larger game

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of foot and that's certainly the

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conclusion I've come to from not only

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the crazy way materialist science works

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but also the way that research gets

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suppressed misrepresented misreported

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and in particular I'm thinking about so

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many of the cases of near-death

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experience research that we've talked

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about on this show and chronicled how

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they've been intentionally

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misrepresented and distorted but all

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that is just to defend this skeptico

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ethos that has evolved which is when you

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look at a topic you have to look for the

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conspiracy you have to follow the data

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follow the data first but then second

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you have to look for the conspiracy or

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you're liable to be blindsided so one of

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the ways that I've come to gauge the

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conspiracy Factor on these topics is to

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hear the pushback that I get from people

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who are opposed to a topic I may be

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covering and now mind you that's not to

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suggest that the people who are pushing

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back are necessarily part of the

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conspiracy if you will I think in a lot

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of cases they're more of a reflection of

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how the larger conspiracy is working its

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way through our culture now you'll hear

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one example of this on the interview we

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have coming up with Bob Hamer but

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another example I can give you and it's

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really such a stark example I can't

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resist throwing it out there is an email

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that I got from my good friend at the

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very excellent Buddha at the gas pump

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show Rick Archer now Rick as you know

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has been on the show a couple times and

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he's become somewhat of an unwitting

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Muse for me because on one hand he

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drives me crazy with his party line

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political Progressive brainwashed world

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of you but on the other hand he does

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provide me with this kind of mirror for

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how some of this information is being

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processed by people who I like and have

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a lot of respect for and think are

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really intelligent but think at the same

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time are totally missing the boat about

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what's really going on in terms of these

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deep spirituality questions and how they

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relate to our culture how they fit into

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the conspiracy question I gotta read for

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you the email that Rick sent me after he

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listened to my interview with Daniel

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pinchbeck where I said look you know if

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you don't think there's something to

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pizzagate then well you're just not

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paying attention you're just not willing

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to look at the data so Rick sent me this

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Alex you're a great guy and I love you

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you've created something wonderful with

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skeptico

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okay wait for it

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buying into this crap will cause

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sensible people to abandon your podcast

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in droves and leave you with an audience

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of wing nuts

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it will also dissuade some important

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guests from coming on your show you have

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an important role to play every time you

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voice your support for something like

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this you erode and marginalize your

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legacy

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wow Legacy

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okay so now my muse has spoken

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so now we can talk about pizzagate and

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where I really want to try and get to

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with this is this deep spirituality

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angle that I was talking about at the

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beginning of the show the whole

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connection back to skeptico to the in

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the e-science to the deeper questions

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about spirituality because this topic

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has all the elements we need to talk

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about the Deep spirituality it has the

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occult angle which immediately throws so

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many people just running over to the

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Christian religious kind of it's all of

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the devil kind of thing and I just don't

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think that fits on the other hand people

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who are quick to defend the occult and

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the satanic and freedom of expression

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they might want to take a deeper look at

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this nature of evil question we've been

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talking about

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and then thirdly like I always say the

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people on the outside looking in are the

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atheistic science types we can also

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throw our media our intellectuals our

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academics we can throw them in the same

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boat they're going to be on the outside

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of this issue looking in because none of

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it is real nothing related to

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spirituality to forces Beyond this

276
00:12:22,190 --> 00:12:19,019
Physical Realm influencing us could have

277
00:12:24,889 --> 00:12:22,200
any reality to it I mean how ridiculous

278
00:12:28,250 --> 00:12:24,899
is that how can we possibly make

279
00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:28,260
progress on this issue or any of these

280
00:12:34,269 --> 00:12:31,200
larger issues when we have this huge

281
00:12:38,210 --> 00:12:34,279
blockage of idiots standing in our way

282
00:12:40,610 --> 00:12:38,220
but that's the problem at hand let's

283
00:12:43,370 --> 00:12:40,620
talk pizzagate and I want to try and

284
00:12:46,850 --> 00:12:43,380
break this down going forward in this

285
00:12:50,210 --> 00:12:46,860
already long introduction with the

286
00:12:51,829 --> 00:12:50,220
skeptico ethos outline that I just kind

287
00:12:53,150 --> 00:12:51,839
of sketched out there I don't know if

288
00:12:55,250 --> 00:12:53,160
you caught it but it's a three-step

289
00:12:58,030 --> 00:12:55,260
process first follow the data wherever

290
00:13:02,030 --> 00:12:58,040
it leads second look for the conspiracy

291
00:13:03,769 --> 00:13:02,040
three find the Deep spirituality so here

292
00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:03,779
goes here's how I apply that to

293
00:13:09,730 --> 00:13:07,200
pizzagate data point one the timeline

294
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:09,740
it's November 4th

295
00:13:15,530 --> 00:13:13,200
2016. four days before the U.S

296
00:13:19,490 --> 00:13:15,540
presidential election our friends at

297
00:13:22,730 --> 00:13:19,500
Wikileaks release a huge batch of emails

298
00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,740
from John podesta super connected super

299
00:13:27,710 --> 00:13:24,720
high up individual in the Hillary

300
00:13:30,410 --> 00:13:27,720
Clinton campaign now these emails are a

301
00:13:32,389 --> 00:13:30,420
bombshell they introduce us to this very

302
00:13:35,449 --> 00:13:32,399
weird occult practice called Spirit

303
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:35,459
cooking they suggest John podesta's ties

304
00:13:40,009 --> 00:13:37,440
to the occult and even sex crimes

305
00:13:42,170 --> 00:13:40,019
against children and they suggest links

306
00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:42,180
between all these other folks political

307
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:44,100
folks including this very influential

308
00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:46,560
guy in DC who happens to run a pizza

309
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:49,560
shop I won't mention his name since he's

310
00:13:53,810 --> 00:13:52,320
been well known to threaten people with

311
00:13:55,069 --> 00:13:53,820
really bad things when his name is

312
00:13:56,269 --> 00:13:55,079
mentioned so I'm not going to mention

313
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,279
his name

314
00:14:02,449 --> 00:13:58,800
but anyways the result of this Wikileaks

315
00:14:04,430 --> 00:14:02,459
email dump is that it spawns this huge

316
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:04,440
open source investigation on the

317
00:14:08,569 --> 00:14:06,480
internet where thousands and thousands

318
00:14:10,990 --> 00:14:08,579
of posters are out there looking through

319
00:14:13,730 --> 00:14:11,000
the public records and trying to find

320
00:14:16,370 --> 00:14:13,740
correlating data to support or in some

321
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:16,380
cases refute the conclusions that people

322
00:14:20,030 --> 00:14:18,480
are drawing from these emails so if

323
00:14:22,430 --> 00:14:20,040
you've never heard about open source

324
00:14:25,069 --> 00:14:22,440
investigations of this type I mean

325
00:14:27,230 --> 00:14:25,079
they're incredibly powerful and useful

326
00:14:29,090 --> 00:14:27,240
and no one can deny the kind of

327
00:14:30,889 --> 00:14:29,100
information that they bring forward some

328
00:14:33,050 --> 00:14:30,899
of it turns out to be garbage some of it

329
00:14:34,490 --> 00:14:33,060
turns out to be really valuable but hey

330
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:34,500
that's the nature of any kind of

331
00:14:39,769 --> 00:14:36,959
Investigation let's bring it down to a

332
00:14:42,050 --> 00:14:39,779
concrete example the podesta emails

333
00:14:44,449 --> 00:14:42,060
contain all this coded speech about

334
00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:44,459
pizza and other things that everyone

335
00:14:49,730 --> 00:14:46,620
immediately was trying to figure out

336
00:14:52,310 --> 00:14:49,740
what it meant because it was clear these

337
00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:52,320
guys can't possibly be talking about

338
00:14:58,250 --> 00:14:55,320
their strange obsession with how thin

339
00:14:59,689 --> 00:14:58,260
you can slice pizza but the challenge

340
00:15:02,329 --> 00:14:59,699
for people who got interested in doing

341
00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:02,339
this open source investigation was can

342
00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:04,740
we find any data in the public domain

343
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:07,260
that would add a little bit of substance

344
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:10,079
to that suspicion and they did for

345
00:15:14,509 --> 00:15:12,720
example people found child porn message

346
00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:14,519
boards where people were using coded

347
00:15:19,009 --> 00:15:16,980
speech even using some of the same coded

348
00:15:21,530 --> 00:15:19,019
speech that they found in the podesta

349
00:15:23,870 --> 00:15:21,540
emails other people dug through the

350
00:15:26,090 --> 00:15:23,880
Twitter and Instagram posts that these

351
00:15:29,090 --> 00:15:26,100
guys were connected with and found all

352
00:15:32,110 --> 00:15:29,100
this really bizarre pedo related weird

353
00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:32,120
sexual stuff with all this pizza imagery

354
00:15:37,430 --> 00:15:35,160
attached to it and I don't want to or

355
00:15:39,949 --> 00:15:37,440
need to get real graphic here because

356
00:15:44,449 --> 00:15:39,959
it's still all out there it's very easy

357
00:15:47,269 --> 00:15:44,459
to find and it's way way over the top so

358
00:15:50,449 --> 00:15:47,279
if that's the data for the pedo thing we

359
00:15:52,970 --> 00:15:50,459
might ask where does it lead I mean does

360
00:15:54,650 --> 00:15:52,980
it lead to a criminal conviction of sex

361
00:15:57,050 --> 00:15:54,660
crimes against children for these people

362
00:15:58,670 --> 00:15:57,060
clearly not as you're about to here in

363
00:16:02,329 --> 00:15:58,680
the interview that I've done with

364
00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:02,339
undercover FBI agent Bob Hamer these are

365
00:16:07,249 --> 00:16:04,440
some of the most difficult crimes to get

366
00:16:08,629 --> 00:16:07,259
a conviction on but I'd like to

367
00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:08,639
establish that there's a different

368
00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:10,980
criteria here when we come to trying to

369
00:16:15,230 --> 00:16:12,660
measure this and let me throw it out

370
00:16:17,949 --> 00:16:15,240
there and see what you think would you

371
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:17,959
let John podesta

372
00:16:25,069 --> 00:16:20,959
babysit your children

373
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:25,079
would one out of a thousand people who

374
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:28,560
isn't a registered sex offender let any

375
00:16:35,329 --> 00:16:31,920
of these people come close to any

376
00:16:38,990 --> 00:16:35,339
children they really care about

377
00:16:43,129 --> 00:16:39,000
no freaking way you know that I know

378
00:16:46,189 --> 00:16:43,139
that and in this case given that this is

379
00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:46,199
just the court of public opinion is that

380
00:16:52,069 --> 00:16:49,320
equivalent to maybe a peer-reviewed

381
00:16:56,329 --> 00:16:52,079
study of whether there is any real

382
00:16:59,629 --> 00:16:56,339
connection between these guys and really

383
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:59,639
really inappropriate behavior involving

384
00:17:03,769 --> 00:17:00,959
children

385
00:17:05,809 --> 00:17:03,779
hey before I get off the data part of

386
00:17:08,090 --> 00:17:05,819
this thing let's talk about the data as

387
00:17:09,230 --> 00:17:08,100
it relates to the occult thing because I

388
00:17:13,789 --> 00:17:09,240
haven't really even talked about that

389
00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:13,799
because that is established I mean

390
00:17:19,189 --> 00:17:16,740
Mariana Abramovich the woman behind the

391
00:17:23,210 --> 00:17:19,199
whole Spirit cooking thing has publicly

392
00:17:25,610 --> 00:17:23,220
stated yeah this is occult stuff this is

393
00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:25,620
trying to Marshal and manage the

394
00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:28,140
energies of the spiritual world to get

395
00:17:32,810 --> 00:17:30,840
them to do things that you want them to

396
00:17:35,390 --> 00:17:32,820
do whether you deem that to be good or

397
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:35,400
bad the the problem with her admission

398
00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:37,440
and why everyone wanted to reframe it

399
00:17:40,850 --> 00:17:38,940
and say oh no this is just performance

400
00:17:43,370 --> 00:17:40,860
art which by the way she says in that

401
00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:43,380
statement she goes look in an artistic

402
00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:45,780
setting it's performance art but all the

403
00:17:49,850 --> 00:17:48,360
rest of the time it's occult magic and

404
00:17:52,010 --> 00:17:49,860
anyone who's familiar with the cult

405
00:17:55,549 --> 00:17:52,020
magic looks at it for five seconds says

406
00:17:57,049 --> 00:17:55,559
that's occult magic the problem is what

407
00:17:58,490 --> 00:17:57,059
do you make of that what do you think

408
00:18:00,289 --> 00:17:58,500
about that do you think that's

409
00:18:01,970 --> 00:18:00,299
automatically satanic do you think

410
00:18:03,529 --> 00:18:01,980
that's automatically be bad do you think

411
00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:03,539
that's automatically a whole bunch of

412
00:18:08,450 --> 00:18:05,580
things and I want to put that to the

413
00:18:12,110 --> 00:18:08,460
side and instead focus on three things

414
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:12,120
where I think that data leads one is

415
00:18:17,810 --> 00:18:15,120
that politically it's game over for

416
00:18:20,630 --> 00:18:17,820
anyone associated with that as we said

417
00:18:25,010 --> 00:18:20,640
you cannot like that but you can't be

418
00:18:28,010 --> 00:18:25,020
involved in crowling occult magic and be

419
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:28,020
elected to high office it doesn't work

420
00:18:31,490 --> 00:18:29,760
so that's one conclusion we can

421
00:18:34,490 --> 00:18:31,500
definitely draw from the data and that

422
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:34,500
can therefore explain why people with

423
00:18:38,510 --> 00:18:36,960
political aspirations have done

424
00:18:39,710 --> 00:18:38,520
everything they can to twist the story

425
00:18:42,289 --> 00:18:39,720
around and get away from the story

426
00:18:44,510 --> 00:18:42,299
because it's game over the second place

427
00:18:47,630 --> 00:18:44,520
it leads us which I just alluded to is

428
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:47,640
that it is absolutely impossible for the

429
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:50,880
atheist secular mainstream media to

430
00:18:57,710 --> 00:18:54,480
process the spiritual component of this

431
00:19:00,830 --> 00:18:57,720
I mean it's a blind spot the woman has

432
00:19:03,770 --> 00:19:00,840
said this is what I'm doing and they

433
00:19:06,169 --> 00:19:03,780
just ignore it because it doesn't fit

434
00:19:08,029 --> 00:19:06,179
within their world view but the third

435
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:08,039
place it leads us is maybe the most

436
00:19:12,470 --> 00:19:09,600
obvious if you can get past the first

437
00:19:15,350 --> 00:19:12,480
two and that's that there are people who

438
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:15,360
practice occult magic in order to affect

439
00:19:21,529 --> 00:19:18,960
things in this material world and until

440
00:19:23,930 --> 00:19:21,539
we can at least acknowledge that

441
00:19:26,450 --> 00:19:23,940
straight on then we're just going to

442
00:19:30,650 --> 00:19:26,460
kind of dance around in circles which is

443
00:19:33,049 --> 00:19:30,660
what you've seen a lot of already so if

444
00:19:36,830 --> 00:19:33,059
that's the data and if that's where the

445
00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:36,840
data leads then what's the conspiracy in

446
00:19:42,470 --> 00:19:40,380
the look for the conspiracy component of

447
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:42,480
this analysis well there's really two

448
00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:44,400
that we need to talk about and the first

449
00:19:49,370 --> 00:19:47,580
one is rather obvious these emails were

450
00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,380
released four days before the U.S

451
00:19:54,890 --> 00:19:51,600
presidential election and they sunk

452
00:19:57,470 --> 00:19:54,900
Hillary's already sinking ship it's hard

453
00:19:58,850 --> 00:19:57,480
to believe that was an accident I mean

454
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:58,860
when it comes to the U.S presidential

455
00:20:04,850 --> 00:20:01,440
elections voters do not stray too far

456
00:20:07,730 --> 00:20:04,860
from the Christian Motif if you will so

457
00:20:10,669 --> 00:20:07,740
any hints of occult related Spirit

458
00:20:12,649 --> 00:20:10,679
cooking stuff four days before the

459
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:12,659
election was probably enough to sink

460
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:15,840
Hillary if not then certainly the

461
00:20:20,029 --> 00:20:18,960
innuendo of child sex abuse among her

462
00:20:23,570 --> 00:20:20,039
staff

463
00:20:26,149 --> 00:20:23,580
sealed the deal so this is a conspiracy

464
00:20:29,090 --> 00:20:26,159
I don't know who's behind it or what the

465
00:20:31,250 --> 00:20:29,100
real agenda was but hey that's part of a

466
00:20:34,490 --> 00:20:31,260
conspiracy we're not supposed to know

467
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:34,500
but there's a second conspiracy involved

468
00:20:38,990 --> 00:20:36,240
here that I want you to take a look at

469
00:20:41,570 --> 00:20:39,000
because while I've been rattling on

470
00:20:44,149 --> 00:20:41,580
about coded emails and open source

471
00:20:47,210 --> 00:20:44,159
investigations some of you have been

472
00:20:49,970 --> 00:20:47,220
thinking but wait a minute pizzagate is

473
00:20:53,149 --> 00:20:49,980
about some crazy guy who shot up a pizza

474
00:20:55,850 --> 00:20:53,159
restaurant that's pizzagate and in a way

475
00:20:59,149 --> 00:20:55,860
you're right because that's certainly

476
00:21:01,250 --> 00:20:59,159
what pizzagate has become any Google

477
00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:01,260
search will tell you that pizzagate is

478
00:21:07,789 --> 00:21:04,500
number one a debunked conspiracy theory

479
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:07,799
and number two something that caused

480
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:10,559
this wacky dangerous conspiracy theorist

481
00:21:17,210 --> 00:21:13,679
to shoot up a pizza restaurant and end

482
00:21:19,070 --> 00:21:17,220
of story move on but there's a couple of

483
00:21:21,710 --> 00:21:19,080
problems with this narrative

484
00:21:25,130 --> 00:21:21,720
first none of this was ever really

485
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:25,140
debunked but Desta never explained his

486
00:21:31,730 --> 00:21:28,080
strangely coded emails why he enjoyed

487
00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:31,740
graphic pedophilia themed art and why he

488
00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:33,600
had close friends like serial child

489
00:21:38,690 --> 00:21:35,940
molester Dennis hastert around and

490
00:21:40,850 --> 00:21:38,700
continued to send him emails and then

491
00:21:43,070 --> 00:21:40,860
there's the thousands and thousands of

492
00:21:44,510 --> 00:21:43,080
posts I was talking about and documents

493
00:21:46,909 --> 00:21:44,520
uncovered in the open source

494
00:21:49,430 --> 00:21:46,919
investigation and interestingly and I

495
00:21:52,010 --> 00:21:49,440
never hear people mention this but that

496
00:21:55,010 --> 00:21:52,020
was all in the process of being shut

497
00:21:57,950 --> 00:21:55,020
down a couple days before

498
00:22:01,549 --> 00:21:57,960
shooting when Reddit without any

499
00:22:04,669 --> 00:22:01,559
precedent or explanation close this

500
00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:04,679
enormous pizzagate thread that had been

501
00:22:08,810 --> 00:22:06,900
accumulating then a few days later on

502
00:22:11,750 --> 00:22:08,820
December 4th there was the shooting in

503
00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:11,760
the pizza restaurant and most folks got

504
00:22:15,590 --> 00:22:13,380
the message and if they are

505
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:15,600
investigating pizzagate they went

506
00:22:21,710 --> 00:22:18,240
running for cover and who can blame him

507
00:22:23,630 --> 00:22:21,720
right so let me with that wrap up this

508
00:22:27,770 --> 00:22:23,640
introduction and move on to my interview

509
00:22:29,570 --> 00:22:27,780
today with X undercover FBI agent Bob

510
00:22:31,610 --> 00:22:29,580
Hamer and I'm pretty confident that

511
00:22:33,710 --> 00:22:31,620
you'll see how this relates to all this

512
00:22:36,529 --> 00:22:33,720
crazy stuff I've been talking about here

513
00:22:38,450 --> 00:22:36,539
but just in case you don't I have a

514
00:22:41,090 --> 00:22:38,460
couple of additional thoughts that I'll

515
00:22:43,370 --> 00:22:41,100
throw out there in the wrap up after the

516
00:22:45,409 --> 00:22:43,380
interview here's my interview with Bob

517
00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:45,419
Hamer

518
00:22:53,870 --> 00:22:50,760
Bob was a special agent with the FBI for

519
00:22:56,210 --> 00:22:53,880
26 years he was also a Judge Advocate in

520
00:22:59,210 --> 00:22:56,220
the Marine Corps and as an attorney he

521
00:23:01,549 --> 00:22:59,220
tried cases ranging from murder to petty

522
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:01,559
theft he's also an accomplished and

523
00:23:07,190 --> 00:23:04,080
award-winning author he's here today to

524
00:23:10,549 --> 00:23:07,200
talk about his book The Last Undercover

525
00:23:14,270 --> 00:23:10,559
the true story of an FBI agent's

526
00:23:15,950 --> 00:23:14,280
dangerous stance with evil and also we

527
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:15,960
may talk about his work with the

528
00:23:21,529 --> 00:23:19,260
organization Veterans for child rescue

529
00:23:23,570 --> 00:23:21,539
Bob welcome to skeptico thank you so

530
00:23:26,330 --> 00:23:23,580
much for joining me Alex thanks for

531
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:26,340
having me on I appreciate it so would

532
00:23:31,549 --> 00:23:29,760
you like to briefly add to that bio that

533
00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:31,559
I sketched out again maybe you can fill

534
00:23:36,169 --> 00:23:34,140
in some of the details particularly with

535
00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:36,179
some of your undercover work you did

536
00:23:42,230 --> 00:23:38,760
while in the FBI

537
00:23:44,810 --> 00:23:42,240
yeah I was really fortunate I I found my

538
00:23:46,850 --> 00:23:44,820
niche in the FBI I as you mentioned I

539
00:23:49,370 --> 00:23:46,860
spent four years on active duty in the

540
00:23:52,909 --> 00:23:49,380
Marine Corps and I was a Judge Advocate

541
00:23:54,769 --> 00:23:52,919
I was a lawyer I laughed because the

542
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:54,779
Marines didn't consider me a marine and

543
00:24:00,409 --> 00:23:57,120
the lawyers didn't consider me a lawyer

544
00:24:02,390 --> 00:24:00,419
and even though I'd gone through the

545
00:24:04,810 --> 00:24:02,400
officer candidate school and the the

546
00:24:07,970 --> 00:24:04,820
six-month officer basic school

547
00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:07,980
I was assigned and then I was I had

548
00:24:11,690 --> 00:24:10,200
already attended law school but I was I

549
00:24:14,029 --> 00:24:11,700
was a Judge Advocate

550
00:24:16,190 --> 00:24:14,039
and the the Marines were going to allow

551
00:24:18,409 --> 00:24:16,200
me to change my MOS if I wanted to stay

552
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:18,419
in and quite frankly I hated being a

553
00:24:23,870 --> 00:24:21,900
lawyer I mean every case we had it was

554
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:23,880
always a procedural issue I kind of grew

555
00:24:28,850 --> 00:24:26,400
up in that Perry Mason generation where

556
00:24:30,110 --> 00:24:28,860
I assumed everyone was innocent and at

557
00:24:32,450 --> 00:24:30,120
some point during the middle of the

558
00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:32,460
trial some guy came barreling through

559
00:24:36,649 --> 00:24:34,500
the back door going I did it I did it

560
00:24:38,990 --> 00:24:36,659
but everybody was guilty it was just a

561
00:24:40,909 --> 00:24:39,000
matter of of whether procedurally you

562
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:40,919
could convict them so whether you were

563
00:24:45,769 --> 00:24:43,440
on the the prosecution side of the table

564
00:24:47,570 --> 00:24:45,779
or the defense side it was whether the

565
00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:47,580
search was legal whether the confession

566
00:24:53,450 --> 00:24:50,640
is admissible and I just I was bored

567
00:24:56,510 --> 00:24:53,460
stiff in the courtroom uh I fortunately

568
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:56,520
for me the FBI was looking for lawyers

569
00:25:04,190 --> 00:25:01,200
and I applied and and got in and man I

570
00:25:07,549 --> 00:25:04,200
I I loved it and I quickly within about

571
00:25:09,649 --> 00:25:07,559
six months of being within the FBI I had

572
00:25:11,570 --> 00:25:09,659
my first undercover assignment and man I

573
00:25:16,190 --> 00:25:11,580
I was hooked then I had that adrenaline

574
00:25:18,769 --> 00:25:16,200
rush and I spent many of my 26 years in

575
00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:18,779
the bureau in undercover capacity so

576
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:19,980
I've

577
00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:32,880
dealer I mean I played all the different

578
00:25:37,909 --> 00:25:35,520
roles I always said I'd been to about 12

579
00:25:41,210 --> 00:25:37,919
different personalities and enjoyed

580
00:25:43,610 --> 00:25:41,220
every one of them fascinating so uh tell

581
00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:43,620
us in particular about this book

582
00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:46,260
in the case that's behind it the last

583
00:25:58,909 --> 00:25:57,529
a lot of Defense counsel claimed I was a

584
00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:58,919
great fiction writer but they were

585
00:26:03,169 --> 00:26:01,200
always referring to my affidavits that I

586
00:26:05,870 --> 00:26:03,179
wrote against their clients but I really

587
00:26:08,029 --> 00:26:05,880
didn't have any desire to to write a

588
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:08,039
book but I got involved in an

589
00:26:12,169 --> 00:26:10,320
organization called NAMBLA and it's the

590
00:26:14,390 --> 00:26:12,179
North American man boy love Association

591
00:26:16,750 --> 00:26:14,400
you got involved through your work as a

592
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:16,760
specialization yeah yeah yeah

593
00:26:22,850 --> 00:26:20,640
as an FBI agent and a lot of people

594
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:22,860
always thought it was a joke it was an

595
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:24,720
episode on South Park I know Howard

596
00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:26,880
Stern used to talk about it and I I

597
00:26:30,610 --> 00:26:28,980
believe people thought oh there can't be

598
00:26:34,370 --> 00:26:30,620
such an organization

599
00:26:38,330 --> 00:26:34,380
that exists like this well there really

600
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,340
was uh my involvement with NAMBLA

601
00:26:44,510 --> 00:26:40,320
originally started

602
00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:44,520
kind of sort of by the back door uh one

603
00:26:48,110 --> 00:26:46,080
of the one of the fun things about

604
00:26:50,510 --> 00:26:48,120
working undercover is you have to assume

605
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:50,520
a variety of roles which means you've

606
00:26:54,649 --> 00:26:51,600
got to be

607
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:54,659
strong enough and smart enough to to

608
00:27:00,049 --> 00:26:58,080
play a role that is believable so at

609
00:27:02,210 --> 00:27:00,059
various times I mean at one point I was

610
00:27:03,830 --> 00:27:02,220
kind of an expert on Western Art I'd

611
00:27:05,570 --> 00:27:03,840
forgotten everything about it that I

612
00:27:08,149 --> 00:27:05,580
learned for that particular undercover

613
00:27:11,029 --> 00:27:08,159
assignment I've had to learn about

614
00:27:14,149 --> 00:27:11,039
specific weapons or about Investments or

615
00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:14,159
about real estate uh just depending upon

616
00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:16,140
what the undercover role was

617
00:27:22,430 --> 00:27:19,260
well in this particular case uh the FBI

618
00:27:24,830 --> 00:27:22,440
had invested in uh arrested a guy back

619
00:27:26,810 --> 00:27:24,840
in Knoxville Tennessee who had been

620
00:27:29,090 --> 00:27:26,820
involved in child pornography and when

621
00:27:31,310 --> 00:27:29,100
they searched his computer they found

622
00:27:35,090 --> 00:27:31,320
that he had taken video of himself

623
00:27:37,730 --> 00:27:35,100
having sex with boys over in Thailand

624
00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:37,740
when they investigated further they

625
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:40,260
found out that he had gone over to

626
00:27:44,570 --> 00:27:42,480
Thailand as part of a sex store as an

627
00:27:46,850 --> 00:27:44,580
organized sex store that was put

628
00:27:49,490 --> 00:27:46,860
together by a travel agent in Los

629
00:27:52,269 --> 00:27:49,500
Angeles at the time I was an undercover

630
00:27:55,250 --> 00:27:52,279
I was an FBI agent in Los Angeles

631
00:27:57,230 --> 00:27:55,260
Los Angeles was tasked by headquarters

632
00:28:00,529 --> 00:27:57,240
that to investigate this undercover

633
00:28:03,409 --> 00:28:00,539
agent so I was called in because I was a

634
00:28:05,750 --> 00:28:03,419
certified undercover agent to work this

635
00:28:07,970 --> 00:28:05,760
this travel agent and you know I liked

636
00:28:09,649 --> 00:28:07,980
the joke when the case agent first

637
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:09,659
approached me it was hey we got this

638
00:28:14,570 --> 00:28:12,240
undercut we need an undercover agent uh

639
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:14,580
involves sex tours to Thailand and I

640
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:16,799
said hey you know sign me up if the

641
00:28:20,990 --> 00:28:18,000
government's going to pay for my

642
00:28:22,850 --> 00:28:21,000
massages over there I'll I'll do it well

643
00:28:25,850 --> 00:28:22,860
then he said no if this is for boy

644
00:28:29,870 --> 00:28:25,860
lovers bl's uh these are for men who are

645
00:28:32,169 --> 00:28:29,880
sexually attracted to to boys and these

646
00:28:35,750 --> 00:28:32,179
men fly from the United States over to

647
00:28:38,990 --> 00:28:35,760
Thailand to engage in sex acts with

648
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:39,000
these kids so I I signed up

649
00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:40,559
um you have to understand let me back up

650
00:28:45,230 --> 00:28:42,000
just a little bit so your listeners

651
00:28:47,510 --> 00:28:45,240
understand in the FBI it's not like

652
00:28:50,330 --> 00:28:47,520
television the supervisor doesn't walk

653
00:28:52,190 --> 00:28:50,340
out into the squad Bay and says hey who

654
00:28:53,930 --> 00:28:52,200
wants to be a pedophile today and you

655
00:28:56,210 --> 00:28:53,940
know some guy raises his hand and said

656
00:28:59,810 --> 00:28:56,220
okay you're going to go undercover as a

657
00:29:00,889 --> 00:28:59,820
pedophile in the bureau there were

658
00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:00,899
probably

659
00:29:06,250 --> 00:29:04,080
12 13 000 agents depending on what

660
00:29:08,930 --> 00:29:06,260
period of time we're talking about

661
00:29:12,169 --> 00:29:08,940
only those that are certified to work

662
00:29:14,690 --> 00:29:12,179
undercover can do the undercover work so

663
00:29:17,630 --> 00:29:14,700
typically there may only be a hundred to

664
00:29:20,510 --> 00:29:17,640
150 agents that are certified to work

665
00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:20,520
undercover not every FBI wants to work

666
00:29:26,090 --> 00:29:23,580
undercover a lot of great agents have no

667
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:26,100
desire to work undercover some agents

668
00:29:29,870 --> 00:29:27,840
that apply for the undercover program

669
00:29:32,389 --> 00:29:29,880
can't get through the initial screening

670
00:29:35,090 --> 00:29:32,399
process then there's a two-week

671
00:29:37,850 --> 00:29:35,100
in-service that the bureau wants you to

672
00:29:39,409 --> 00:29:37,860
think it's like buds training or Boot

673
00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:39,419
Camp or Marine Corps officer candidate

674
00:29:45,049 --> 00:29:42,059
school it's it's not but a lot of guys

675
00:29:46,909 --> 00:29:45,059
can't get to that two-week undercover

676
00:29:49,370 --> 00:29:46,919
in-service that they have because they

677
00:29:51,769 --> 00:29:49,380
it's stressful and they they want to see

678
00:29:53,810 --> 00:29:51,779
how you react to stress and then guys

679
00:29:56,210 --> 00:29:53,820
that graduate that are certified to work

680
00:29:57,950 --> 00:29:56,220
undercover may only work one or two

681
00:30:00,769 --> 00:29:57,960
assignments because they don't like the

682
00:30:03,769 --> 00:30:00,779
hours they don't like the pressure they

683
00:30:06,649 --> 00:30:03,779
move up in management so it at any one

684
00:30:09,070 --> 00:30:06,659
time there may only be 100 to 150 people

685
00:30:11,389 --> 00:30:09,080
that are certified to work undercover

686
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:11,399
and there weren't a whole lot of us on

687
00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:14,159
the on the east or on the West Coast

688
00:30:19,130 --> 00:30:17,340
so I like the joke that towards the end

689
00:30:21,649 --> 00:30:19,140
of my career I was getting all the IOU

690
00:30:23,810 --> 00:30:21,659
assignments if they needed somebody that

691
00:30:25,130 --> 00:30:23,820
was impotent old or ugly they were

692
00:30:28,850 --> 00:30:25,140
calling on me

693
00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:28,860
and that's so that's that's how I got

694
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:31,380
involved I was contacted because I was a

695
00:30:35,930 --> 00:30:33,840
certified undercover agent do you want

696
00:30:38,389 --> 00:30:35,940
to work this travel agent case

697
00:30:41,149 --> 00:30:38,399
well let's talk about this topic a

698
00:30:43,250 --> 00:30:41,159
little bit though because you know I

699
00:30:45,409 --> 00:30:43,260
understand you're you're you're joking

700
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:45,419
with it and and we gotta kind of lighten

701
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:48,000
it up a little bit because sex crimes

702
00:30:53,389 --> 00:30:51,360
against children is something that a lot

703
00:30:55,010 --> 00:30:53,399
of people just won't talk about I mean

704
00:30:57,649 --> 00:30:55,020
if you want to clear a room

705
00:30:59,509 --> 00:30:57,659
talk about 10 year olds boys being raped

706
00:31:02,750 --> 00:30:59,519
by 50 year old men

707
00:31:04,909 --> 00:31:02,760
but I I guess I think that you know the

708
00:31:07,730 --> 00:31:04,919
whole reason we're having this dialogue

709
00:31:11,149 --> 00:31:07,740
here and I suspect that part of the

710
00:31:14,690 --> 00:31:11,159
reason why you wrote this book is that

711
00:31:17,570 --> 00:31:14,700
it is something we have to face or we

712
00:31:20,029 --> 00:31:17,580
wind up with all sorts of craziness

713
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:20,039
where otherwise intelligent well-meaning

714
00:31:25,549 --> 00:31:22,320
people are saying some just rather

715
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:25,559
ridiculous stuff that sounds like it's

716
00:31:32,029 --> 00:31:28,559
in defense of this Behavior or somehow

717
00:31:34,370 --> 00:31:32,039
normalizing it or minimizing it do you

718
00:31:36,889 --> 00:31:34,380
have any sense do you have any feeling

719
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:36,899
after going through this that that that

720
00:31:41,509 --> 00:31:38,880
does that bug you when you see that

721
00:31:43,310 --> 00:31:41,519
going on or do you see that going on oh

722
00:31:46,130 --> 00:31:43,320
you're no you're absolutely right you

723
00:31:50,990 --> 00:31:46,140
you you're spot on with with your

724
00:31:53,870 --> 00:31:51,000
evaluation uh the the book was written

725
00:31:55,730 --> 00:31:53,880
because I was so disgusted by this

726
00:31:57,830 --> 00:31:55,740
undercover assignment I've had more

727
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:57,840
dangerous assignments I've had a

728
00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:00,000
contract put out on my life I've shot

729
00:32:04,850 --> 00:32:03,000
people I've been shot at I've I've

730
00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:04,860
I was the undercover agent in the La

731
00:32:10,549 --> 00:32:07,740
Mafia Family case there is no La Mafia

732
00:32:12,889 --> 00:32:10,559
anymore we talked wiped out the top 15

733
00:32:15,110 --> 00:32:12,899
members of the La Mafia I mean I've been

734
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:15,120
involved in some pretty dangerous

735
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:17,760
undercover assignments but this was my

736
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:19,679
most disgusting assignment and this was

737
00:32:24,409 --> 00:32:22,080
my most difficult assignment and having

738
00:32:27,409 --> 00:32:24,419
to spend three years in the organization

739
00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:27,419
not on a daily basis when I was meeting

740
00:32:32,870 --> 00:32:29,460
with these people but

741
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:32,880
over a three-year period conversing with

742
00:32:36,649 --> 00:32:34,559
them meeting with them face to face

743
00:32:38,990 --> 00:32:36,659
writing letters to those that were in

744
00:32:41,570 --> 00:32:39,000
prison and eventually convicting eight

745
00:32:45,049 --> 00:32:41,580
members of the group Center Circle I was

746
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:45,059
so disgusted by what I had seen uh so

747
00:32:49,789 --> 00:32:47,519
disturbed by the communications that I

748
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:49,799
had with these men listening to them

749
00:32:54,769 --> 00:32:51,840
tell about what they had done to kids

750
00:32:57,049 --> 00:32:54,779
what they wanted to do to little boys I

751
00:32:59,870 --> 00:32:57,059
needed to write about this maybe for

752
00:33:01,970 --> 00:32:59,880
catharsism on my part but really to

753
00:33:04,549 --> 00:33:01,980
expose the world to let the world know

754
00:33:05,630 --> 00:33:04,559
about this boy loved her boy lover

755
00:33:07,070 --> 00:33:05,640
agenda

756
00:33:09,769 --> 00:33:07,080
and

757
00:33:11,330 --> 00:33:09,779
the book I mean a lot of people can't

758
00:33:13,850 --> 00:33:11,340
read the book you're absolutely right

759
00:33:15,649 --> 00:33:13,860
it's like oh I don't I want to I I want

760
00:33:18,470 --> 00:33:15,659
to bury my head in the sand and I don't

761
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:18,480
even want to talk about this and now you

762
00:33:24,470 --> 00:33:22,080
are seeing this whole pedophilia is is

763
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:24,480
becoming the next civil rights issue

764
00:33:29,389 --> 00:33:27,600
yeah and and that's that's strange and I

765
00:33:31,130 --> 00:33:29,399
think I want to explore that stop and

766
00:33:33,529 --> 00:33:31,140
explore that for a minute because I do

767
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:33,539
get the sense that that there are some

768
00:33:38,810 --> 00:33:36,000
you know in intelligent otherwise

769
00:33:41,750 --> 00:33:38,820
intelligent well-meaning people who just

770
00:33:43,430 --> 00:33:41,760
kind of gets vapor lock on this I'll

771
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:43,440
give you a small example you know I was

772
00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:45,360
working on an interview with the show

773
00:33:50,870 --> 00:33:48,960
and I was in contact with a woman who

774
00:33:52,669 --> 00:33:50,880
was the co-author with someone who'd

775
00:33:55,610 --> 00:33:52,679
been on the show and I like and respect

776
00:33:57,769 --> 00:33:55,620
and we started talking a little bit

777
00:33:59,389 --> 00:33:57,779
about this prominent political figure

778
00:34:01,909 --> 00:33:59,399
that was linked to this kind of

779
00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:01,919
pedophilia sex crime thing and the net

780
00:34:07,070 --> 00:34:04,740
result is she says I think that what

781
00:34:10,730 --> 00:34:07,080
goes on between people in the bedroom

782
00:34:13,930 --> 00:34:10,740
should be private and I was like no wait

783
00:34:18,649 --> 00:34:13,940
a minute no sane person equates

784
00:34:20,329 --> 00:34:18,659
that statement with pedophilia yet I get

785
00:34:23,569 --> 00:34:20,339
the sense and I'd like to get your view

786
00:34:26,930 --> 00:34:23,579
on this that there it's kind of been

787
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:26,940
mixed up in our culture in in the way

788
00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:29,040
the media communicates it to where

789
00:34:33,409 --> 00:34:31,440
people actually kind of say things like

790
00:34:34,730 --> 00:34:33,419
that without really kind of thinking it

791
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:34,740
through

792
00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:38,159
well I agree with you I hope that she

793
00:34:43,550 --> 00:34:41,040
wasn't thinking it through but as I saw

794
00:34:45,290 --> 00:34:43,560
in NAMBLA now you have to understand the

795
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:45,300
whole purpose of the North American man

796
00:34:53,149 --> 00:34:49,919
boy love Association it's it is a 501c

797
00:34:55,069 --> 00:34:53,159
I think I shouldn't say that it is an

798
00:34:58,910 --> 00:34:55,079
organization that is protected by the

799
00:35:01,250 --> 00:34:58,920
First Amendment because they're on paper

800
00:35:03,410 --> 00:35:01,260
their mission is to abolish age of

801
00:35:06,290 --> 00:35:03,420
consent laws explain that a little bit

802
00:35:07,550 --> 00:35:06,300
okay yeah I I'm so your listeners

803
00:35:11,210 --> 00:35:07,560
understand

804
00:35:14,390 --> 00:35:11,220
uh most Nations every state in the

805
00:35:17,630 --> 00:35:14,400
United States has a minimum age of

806
00:35:22,010 --> 00:35:17,640
consent law in other words if you if an

807
00:35:23,810 --> 00:35:22,020
adult has sex with an 18 year old if a

808
00:35:26,810 --> 00:35:23,820
50 year old man has sex with an 18 year

809
00:35:30,410 --> 00:35:26,820
old that's okay if the age of consent

810
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:30,420
law is 18. now what you see in NAMBLA

811
00:35:37,370 --> 00:35:33,839
was their mission was to abolish the age

812
00:35:40,609 --> 00:35:37,380
of consent law uh they wanted to just do

813
00:35:43,490 --> 00:35:40,619
away with it completely and say look if

814
00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:43,500
two consenting people are doing this

815
00:35:48,890 --> 00:35:46,560
then it's okay now let's let's take it

816
00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:48,900
one step further when you hear that on

817
00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:50,400
the surface two consenting people

818
00:35:55,190 --> 00:35:53,700
similar to what your your guest said you

819
00:35:57,349 --> 00:35:55,200
know what people do in the bedroom is

820
00:36:00,170 --> 00:35:57,359
okay so if when we're talking about two

821
00:36:02,210 --> 00:36:00,180
consenting people we're talking about uh

822
00:36:04,310 --> 00:36:02,220
two 30 year olds or a 40 year old and a

823
00:36:06,349 --> 00:36:04,320
20 year old you know that's that's one

824
00:36:08,810 --> 00:36:06,359
thing uh NAMBLA talks about

825
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:08,820
intergenerational sex so you think about

826
00:36:13,970 --> 00:36:11,280
uh 50 year old and a 30 year old okay

827
00:36:17,690 --> 00:36:13,980
that's that's fine but they want to

828
00:36:20,329 --> 00:36:17,700
abolish all age of consent so they

829
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:20,339
believe that as long as you're

830
00:36:25,430 --> 00:36:23,280
consenting regardless of your age it

831
00:36:27,650 --> 00:36:25,440
should be okay Bob let me just interject

832
00:36:29,390 --> 00:36:27,660
two things here so we don't get too far

833
00:36:31,069 --> 00:36:29,400
afield I want people to understand the

834
00:36:34,609 --> 00:36:31,079
case that you investigated you

835
00:36:37,130 --> 00:36:34,619
investigated men like 40 50 year old men

836
00:36:40,130 --> 00:36:37,140
who were planning to have sex with 10

837
00:36:42,170 --> 00:36:40,140
year old boys right exactly yeah so so

838
00:36:44,089 --> 00:36:42,180
you know I mean we can get into the

839
00:36:46,430 --> 00:36:44,099
legal technicalities and stuff like that

840
00:36:47,630 --> 00:36:46,440
I mean we gotta I think we gotta kind of

841
00:36:49,370 --> 00:36:47,640
come down to that and understand you

842
00:36:51,650 --> 00:36:49,380
know there's all this gray area about

843
00:36:54,050 --> 00:36:51,660
consent and we hear about these horror

844
00:36:58,190 --> 00:36:54,060
stories of you know people who do wind

845
00:37:00,770 --> 00:36:58,200
up in a situation that we can have

846
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:00,780
empathy for I'm a dad I don't know about

847
00:37:05,210 --> 00:37:03,119
you I have four kids I remember when my

848
00:37:08,329 --> 00:37:05,220
boys were 10 year olds I remember when

849
00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:08,339
my girls were 10 year olds the idea of

850
00:37:13,730 --> 00:37:11,220
someone raping them at that age or

851
00:37:16,970 --> 00:37:13,740
somehow tricking them and uh you know if

852
00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:16,980
that I mean it's it's Soul crushing it's

853
00:37:21,530 --> 00:37:19,920
psyche crushing I mean so one to be

854
00:37:23,450 --> 00:37:21,540
clear that's what you're investigating

855
00:37:24,890 --> 00:37:23,460
you weren't getting into 15 year olds or

856
00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:24,900
something I wasn't getting into 15 year

857
00:37:29,450 --> 00:37:26,940
olds I'm just trying to give the

858
00:37:31,490 --> 00:37:29,460
listeners an idea of where where the

859
00:37:33,770 --> 00:37:31,500
line is drawn and the other thing is

860
00:37:35,450 --> 00:37:33,780
that the NAMBLA thing is [\h__\h] right

861
00:37:38,050 --> 00:37:35,460
I mean it was [\h__\h] they're not

862
00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:38,060
really interested in that

863
00:37:41,750 --> 00:37:39,839
NAMBLA

864
00:37:46,010 --> 00:37:41,760
during my three years there was no

865
00:37:47,990 --> 00:37:46,020
effort at any time to abolish age of

866
00:37:53,150 --> 00:37:48,000
consent laws there was no legislative

867
00:37:54,829 --> 00:37:53,160
effort there was no no uh movement to

868
00:37:57,230 --> 00:37:54,839
write letters to your Congressman or

869
00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:57,240
your legislators all this organization

870
00:38:02,030 --> 00:37:59,760
was designed to do was for like-minded

871
00:38:03,710 --> 00:38:02,040
men to get together and to talk about

872
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:03,720
where they could go to have sex with

873
00:38:07,790 --> 00:38:06,000
little boys and how they could seduce

874
00:38:10,130 --> 00:38:07,800
little boys that was the whole purpose

875
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:10,140
of this organization even though on

876
00:38:15,050 --> 00:38:12,720
paper it was to abolish the age of

877
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:15,060
consent laws that kind of leads into

878
00:38:20,510 --> 00:38:18,480
what I really wanted to accomplish along

879
00:38:22,609 --> 00:38:20,520
with telling people about this book and

880
00:38:25,670 --> 00:38:22,619
these other organizations that you're a

881
00:38:28,130 --> 00:38:25,680
part of to try and help improve this

882
00:38:31,130 --> 00:38:28,140
situation is I want to tap into your

883
00:38:33,109 --> 00:38:31,140
expertise and experience in working on

884
00:38:34,609 --> 00:38:33,119
these crimes I mean be clear that there

885
00:38:38,630 --> 00:38:34,619
are that they're crimes we're talking

886
00:38:40,670 --> 00:38:38,640
about crimes but maybe to dispel some of

887
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:40,680
these myths and it the same time

888
00:38:46,069 --> 00:38:43,680
Identify some of the patterns that go

889
00:38:49,970 --> 00:38:46,079
along with this criminal Behavior tell

890
00:38:51,710 --> 00:38:49,980
folks about the Toys R Us story

891
00:38:54,589 --> 00:38:51,720
yeah I

892
00:38:57,770 --> 00:38:54,599
first joined the organization it was it

893
00:38:59,270 --> 00:38:57,780
was to provide me backstopping for this

894
00:39:01,550 --> 00:38:59,280
travel agent case that we were

895
00:39:03,230 --> 00:39:01,560
investigating so I was I was trying to

896
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:03,240
figure out okay this is a boy lover

897
00:39:07,370 --> 00:39:05,280
movement I've got to think like them

898
00:39:09,410 --> 00:39:07,380
I've got to talk like them I've got a

899
00:39:11,810 --> 00:39:09,420
I've got to convince this travel agent

900
00:39:13,550 --> 00:39:11,820
that one is one that I'm one of them so

901
00:39:15,890 --> 00:39:13,560
I joined NAMBLA I mean during my

902
00:39:18,530 --> 00:39:15,900
research I come across NAMBLA as an

903
00:39:20,210 --> 00:39:18,540
organization you can send in 35 and now

904
00:39:23,390 --> 00:39:20,220
you're essentially a card carrying

905
00:39:25,730 --> 00:39:23,400
member so I joined the organization soon

906
00:39:28,430 --> 00:39:25,740
after I had joined I received some

907
00:39:29,870 --> 00:39:28,440
emails we have prisoners we have members

908
00:39:32,510 --> 00:39:29,880
that are in prison can you send

909
00:39:34,849 --> 00:39:32,520
Christmas cards to our imprisoned

910
00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:34,859
members so I sent Christmas cards then

911
00:39:38,210 --> 00:39:36,240
it was like well we have a pen pal

912
00:39:40,250 --> 00:39:38,220
program can you write letters so I

913
00:39:42,349 --> 00:39:40,260
started corresponding with some of these

914
00:39:45,530 --> 00:39:42,359
members and the correspondence for the

915
00:39:47,450 --> 00:39:45,540
most part was disgusting now I find out

916
00:39:50,810 --> 00:39:47,460
that they were having their their

917
00:39:52,609 --> 00:39:50,820
national meeting in San Francisco I have

918
00:39:54,589 --> 00:39:52,619
to understand Alex when this first

919
00:39:56,510 --> 00:39:54,599
organization first started they had very

920
00:39:58,010 --> 00:39:56,520
open meetings and they wrote they were

921
00:40:01,430 --> 00:39:58,020
meeting in libraries and public

922
00:40:03,650 --> 00:40:01,440
buildings because it was deemed part of

923
00:40:05,210 --> 00:40:03,660
this sexual Revolution and a movement

924
00:40:07,490 --> 00:40:05,220
that was part of the sexual Revolution

925
00:40:09,710 --> 00:40:07,500
they were marching in the Gay Pride

926
00:40:13,309 --> 00:40:09,720
parades and openly Marching In Those

927
00:40:16,069 --> 00:40:13,319
parades then there was a Groundswell to

928
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:16,079
that forced this group to go essentially

929
00:40:20,510 --> 00:40:18,480
underground so these meetings I wanted

930
00:40:22,609 --> 00:40:20,520
to go to this meeting in San Francisco I

931
00:40:24,349 --> 00:40:22,619
was told no you haven't been a member

932
00:40:27,109 --> 00:40:24,359
long enough and you have to be sponsored

933
00:40:29,089 --> 00:40:27,119
by another member usually it takes three

934
00:40:31,730 --> 00:40:29,099
years before we'll invite you to one of

935
00:40:34,190 --> 00:40:31,740
our our meetings because they'd had so

936
00:40:37,490 --> 00:40:34,200
much exposure so much adverse exposure

937
00:40:39,770 --> 00:40:37,500
in the past when I finally get invited

938
00:40:42,530 --> 00:40:39,780
and what happened was I I was working on

939
00:40:45,490 --> 00:40:42,540
the joint terrorism task force but I was

940
00:40:47,630 --> 00:40:45,500
still in this organization uh I was

941
00:40:49,809 --> 00:40:47,640
corresponding with the members I was

942
00:40:52,490 --> 00:40:49,819
sending them Christmas cards I wrote

943
00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:52,500
articles for their magazine the NAMBLA

944
00:40:57,109 --> 00:40:54,720
bulletin all of a sudden I get invited

945
00:40:59,569 --> 00:40:57,119
to their New York meeting that they were

946
00:41:01,670 --> 00:40:59,579
having the next year so San Francisco I

947
00:41:03,349 --> 00:41:01,680
wasn't invited to now when they have

948
00:41:06,470 --> 00:41:03,359
their New York meeting I'm invited to

949
00:41:09,710 --> 00:41:06,480
that and it's over Veterans Day weekend

950
00:41:11,569 --> 00:41:09,720
I go back to New York we meet at Grand

951
00:41:14,750 --> 00:41:11,579
Central Station now as I mentioned

952
00:41:17,809 --> 00:41:14,760
before I've targeted some pretty tough

953
00:41:19,910 --> 00:41:17,819
organizations the mafia Asian organized

954
00:41:22,609 --> 00:41:19,920
crime groups Russian organized crime

955
00:41:26,270 --> 00:41:22,619
groups street gangs I've never met a

956
00:41:28,250 --> 00:41:26,280
more paranoid group than this so our

957
00:41:30,230 --> 00:41:28,260
initial meeting on Friday night we were

958
00:41:32,809 --> 00:41:30,240
to meet at Grand Central Station at the

959
00:41:34,609 --> 00:41:32,819
Dining Concourse they weren't going to

960
00:41:37,309 --> 00:41:34,619
announce where the meeting was taking

961
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:37,319
place until that night they didn't want

962
00:41:44,809 --> 00:41:41,520
to give law enforcement any chance to

963
00:41:46,550 --> 00:41:44,819
set up and raid the meeting or or take

964
00:41:48,650 --> 00:41:46,560
photographs of those members who were

965
00:41:50,809 --> 00:41:48,660
going into the meeting and everything so

966
00:41:51,950 --> 00:41:50,819
that's that's their security was was

967
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:51,960
that tight

968
00:41:56,930 --> 00:41:53,760
well that night while we were in the

969
00:42:00,530 --> 00:41:56,940
Grand Central Station uh congregating

970
00:42:02,089 --> 00:42:00,540
around the kind of the leader of the

971
00:42:04,910 --> 00:42:02,099
group they don't have a president but

972
00:42:06,589 --> 00:42:04,920
kind of the guy who's take charge of the

973
00:42:10,670 --> 00:42:06,599
organization was a fellow named Peter

974
00:42:12,410 --> 00:42:10,680
melzer he was a school teacher back in

975
00:42:15,230 --> 00:42:12,420
New York City before he got fired

976
00:42:18,589 --> 00:42:15,240
because of his associations with NAMBLA

977
00:42:21,349 --> 00:42:18,599
uh he asked if we want to take a tour of

978
00:42:23,089 --> 00:42:21,359
Times Square so we begin this walk from

979
00:42:24,050 --> 00:42:23,099
Grand Central Station down to Times

980
00:42:27,650 --> 00:42:24,060
Square

981
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:27,660
and as we are getting closer I can begin

982
00:42:34,430 --> 00:42:29,760
to feel the excitement I mean it's like

983
00:42:38,270 --> 00:42:34,440
going to a USC football game or uh uh

984
00:42:39,589 --> 00:42:38,280
you could you could sense the sort of

985
00:42:42,349 --> 00:42:39,599
this excitement on the part of the

986
00:42:44,150 --> 00:42:42,359
members and all of a sudden we come to

987
00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:44,160
Toys R Us

988
00:42:50,150 --> 00:42:47,160
and these guys as we walk in they run to

989
00:42:52,550 --> 00:42:50,160
the railing and Toys R Us is closed now

990
00:42:55,609 --> 00:42:52,560
in in Times Square but they had a

991
00:42:58,250 --> 00:42:55,619
60-foot indoor Ferris wheel and these

992
00:43:00,710 --> 00:42:58,260
men ran to the railing and stood at the

993
00:43:03,829 --> 00:43:00,720
railing and watched these boys going

994
00:43:06,410 --> 00:43:03,839
around on the ferris wheel and pointing

995
00:43:08,329 --> 00:43:06,420
out the different boys based upon what

996
00:43:10,430 --> 00:43:08,339
clothes they were wearing and talking

997
00:43:12,770 --> 00:43:10,440
about oh that kid in the number 32

998
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:12,780
Jersey this is what I'd like to do with

999
00:43:17,210 --> 00:43:14,640
them and we're getting pretty explicit

1000
00:43:20,809 --> 00:43:17,220
with the sex acts that they wanted to do

1001
00:43:23,569 --> 00:43:20,819
to these little boys and I I say this uh

1002
00:43:25,970 --> 00:43:23,579
had I not been undercover had I walked

1003
00:43:27,530 --> 00:43:25,980
past them and heard these men talking

1004
00:43:29,690 --> 00:43:27,540
like that I would have thrown them off

1005
00:43:32,510 --> 00:43:29,700
the railing I mean it was so disgusting

1006
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,520
what they were doing and it it

1007
00:43:37,069 --> 00:43:34,880
demonstrated to me that parents

1008
00:43:41,870 --> 00:43:37,079
well-meaning parents who'd brought their

1009
00:43:44,329 --> 00:43:41,880
P their children to a public arena with

1010
00:43:46,730 --> 00:43:44,339
providing eye candy for these pedophiles

1011
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:46,740
and these these sick perverts talking

1012
00:43:50,690 --> 00:43:48,960
about what they really want to do to

1013
00:43:51,710 --> 00:43:50,700
these little boys and this is not a

1014
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:51,720
crime

1015
00:43:59,089 --> 00:43:56,640
acting out upon it they were just saying

1016
00:44:01,849 --> 00:43:59,099
what they wanted to do you see because I

1017
00:44:05,150 --> 00:44:01,859
think we can spend a lot of time in

1018
00:44:07,550 --> 00:44:05,160
energy worrying about what's a crime now

1019
00:44:09,710 --> 00:44:07,560
I realize this FBI special agent for the

1020
00:44:11,270 --> 00:44:09,720
FBI that's your job as an attorney

1021
00:44:13,550 --> 00:44:11,280
working with the district attorney

1022
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:13,560
that's your job you know like you said

1023
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:14,880
earlier about one of the things you

1024
00:44:18,470 --> 00:44:17,040
disliked about being a lawyer it seemed

1025
00:44:22,849 --> 00:44:18,480
like you spent all your time on

1026
00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:22,859
procedural issues but so I I wanna get

1027
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:24,180
your opinion

1028
00:44:28,849 --> 00:44:26,400
kind of a little bit outside of your

1029
00:44:31,609 --> 00:44:28,859
experience as an FBI agent but this

1030
00:44:34,849 --> 00:44:31,619
distinction between kind of common sense

1031
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:34,859
you know like common sense says hey I'd

1032
00:44:38,390 --> 00:44:36,480
throw these guys off the rail I mean

1033
00:44:39,950 --> 00:44:38,400
these are disgusting people that are

1034
00:44:43,190 --> 00:44:39,960
going to act out these crimes against

1035
00:44:45,950 --> 00:44:43,200
these defenseless Kids versus I

1036
00:44:48,530 --> 00:44:45,960
understand your role as an FBI agent but

1037
00:44:51,050 --> 00:44:48,540
in the terms of public discourse

1038
00:44:53,150 --> 00:44:51,060
I think sometimes we get hung up on

1039
00:44:55,730 --> 00:44:53,160
proving a crime which is what we should

1040
00:44:58,430 --> 00:44:55,740
do before we incarcerate somebody versus

1041
00:45:02,390 --> 00:44:58,440
the court of public opinion when the

1042
00:45:03,950 --> 00:45:02,400
evidence is highly suggestive that these

1043
00:45:06,770 --> 00:45:03,960
individuals or a particular individual

1044
00:45:08,210 --> 00:45:06,780
is involved in this kind of behavior do

1045
00:45:09,470 --> 00:45:08,220
you have a sense for where I'm going

1046
00:45:12,530 --> 00:45:09,480
with that

1047
00:45:14,930 --> 00:45:12,540
well and I think it's important that we

1048
00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:14,940
that we understand what these people are

1049
00:45:18,890 --> 00:45:17,040
doing and how they're thinking because

1050
00:45:20,990 --> 00:45:18,900
as we mentioned just a little earlier in

1051
00:45:25,550 --> 00:45:21,000
this interview there is a movement of

1052
00:45:27,770 --> 00:45:25,560
foot to describe pedophilia as a civil

1053
00:45:31,609 --> 00:45:27,780
rights issue and the next civil rights

1054
00:45:34,250 --> 00:45:31,619
issue and so we there's a movement to

1055
00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:34,260
remove pedophilia from the diagnostic

1056
00:45:41,210 --> 00:45:37,200
and statistical manual the DSM-5 right

1057
00:45:45,230 --> 00:45:41,220
uh just as as homosexuality was removed

1058
00:45:48,230 --> 00:45:45,240
in the 60s I believe and now there is a

1059
00:45:50,990 --> 00:45:48,240
movement afloat by professionals this

1060
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:51,000
isn't just this isn't just somebody that

1061
00:45:53,930 --> 00:45:51,839
doesn't know what they're talking about

1062
00:45:56,990 --> 00:45:53,940
these are psychiatrists psychologists

1063
00:45:59,089 --> 00:45:57,000
with Advanced degrees that believe that

1064
00:46:01,550 --> 00:45:59,099
believe that we should remove this as a

1065
00:46:03,950 --> 00:46:01,560
mental disease and disorder

1066
00:46:06,710 --> 00:46:03,960
so I'm a little bit familiar with that

1067
00:46:08,569 --> 00:46:06,720
my wife is a forensic psychologist and

1068
00:46:09,829 --> 00:46:08,579
she actually has worked in prison one

1069
00:46:11,569 --> 00:46:09,839
thing I just wanted to throw in about

1070
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:11,579
her work that she educated me on you

1071
00:46:16,130 --> 00:46:13,920
know you hear about how sex offenders

1072
00:46:17,990 --> 00:46:16,140
are treated in prison and I wasn't sure

1073
00:46:21,109 --> 00:46:18,000
whether that was myth or not and I know

1074
00:46:23,329 --> 00:46:21,119
for my wife she said no that is that is

1075
00:46:25,609 --> 00:46:23,339
like totally real and maybe you want to

1076
00:46:27,770 --> 00:46:25,619
talk about that too but I mean talk

1077
00:46:29,930 --> 00:46:27,780
about you can't even say low person on

1078
00:46:32,750 --> 00:46:29,940
the totem pole in prison I mean these

1079
00:46:35,329 --> 00:46:32,760
people are at risk for losing their life

1080
00:46:38,450 --> 00:46:35,339
that's how much they're loathed by even

1081
00:46:42,650 --> 00:46:38,460
the prison population right

1082
00:46:45,710 --> 00:46:42,660
well it in some prisons it's true uh the

1083
00:46:46,690 --> 00:46:45,720
Kinder gentler federal system now we've

1084
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:46,700
actually

1085
00:46:52,430 --> 00:46:49,920
established in in Butner North Carolina

1086
00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:52,440
at the federal prison there is where a

1087
00:46:59,329 --> 00:46:55,200
lot of the sex offenders go so that they

1088
00:47:03,609 --> 00:46:59,339
are kind of housed in the same Arena ONE

1089
00:47:06,490 --> 00:47:03,619
for safety but also for uh for

1090
00:47:12,050 --> 00:47:06,500
counseling and and Rehabilitation

1091
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:12,060
allegedly but uh yeah I mean it's I I we

1092
00:47:15,829 --> 00:47:14,400
used to joke when we would arrest a sex

1093
00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:15,839
offender we'd say you know we ought to

1094
00:47:20,089 --> 00:47:17,760
let him he'd probably agree to plead

1095
00:47:22,790 --> 00:47:20,099
guilty to bank robbery for 10 years then

1096
00:47:25,250 --> 00:47:22,800
a sex offense for five years because

1097
00:47:27,530 --> 00:47:25,260
he'd rather have the

1098
00:47:30,410 --> 00:47:27,540
the inmates believe he was a bank robber

1099
00:47:31,970 --> 00:47:30,420
than a than a sex offender particularly

1100
00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:31,980
a child molester

1101
00:47:37,069 --> 00:47:34,260
so let me touch on another thing that's

1102
00:47:39,650 --> 00:47:37,079
kind of part of the story that you told

1103
00:47:43,010 --> 00:47:39,660
and maybe you can elaborate on it but

1104
00:47:46,250 --> 00:47:43,020
another characteristic we see is that

1105
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:46,260
these folks like to associate with each

1106
00:47:49,490 --> 00:47:48,000
other they like to get together with

1107
00:47:51,530 --> 00:47:49,500
other pedophiles even if it's just to

1108
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:51,540
exchange images of

1109
00:47:56,089 --> 00:47:54,000
you know child porn or if it's the

1110
00:47:58,370 --> 00:47:56,099
exchange you know techniques in terms of

1111
00:48:00,589 --> 00:47:58,380
how to get kids and stuff like that I

1112
00:48:03,230 --> 00:48:00,599
mean you're talking about maybe you want

1113
00:48:06,650 --> 00:48:03,240
to talk to this but you wind up working

1114
00:48:10,010 --> 00:48:06,660
with a diverse if you will group of

1115
00:48:13,309 --> 00:48:10,020
individuals across a political Spectrum

1116
00:48:15,710 --> 00:48:13,319
across uh the outwardly spiritual

1117
00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:15,720
perspective I mean speak to that you

1118
00:48:25,690 --> 00:48:23,630
[Music]

1119
00:48:29,210 --> 00:48:25,700
economic uh

1120
00:48:31,970 --> 00:48:29,220
perspectives we had I met Mensa members

1121
00:48:34,450 --> 00:48:31,980
I met the illiterate I met wealthy

1122
00:48:36,770 --> 00:48:34,460
people I met people that were on welfare

1123
00:48:39,349 --> 00:48:36,780
uh one of the guys that we ended up

1124
00:48:41,690 --> 00:48:39,359
convicting was a dentist he actually

1125
00:48:46,190 --> 00:48:41,700
flew to the meeting in Miami in his own

1126
00:48:48,829 --> 00:48:46,200
plane we we arrested a PHD psychologist

1127
00:48:51,770 --> 00:48:48,839
so if the people that we convicted in in

1128
00:48:54,670 --> 00:48:51,780
our operation we had a PHD psychologist

1129
00:48:58,970 --> 00:48:54,680
who worked at two Chicago area hospitals

1130
00:49:01,670 --> 00:48:58,980
a dentist in from Dallas we had three

1131
00:49:05,270 --> 00:49:01,680
special ed teachers we had an ordained

1132
00:49:06,730 --> 00:49:05,280
minister we had a blue collar worker and

1133
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:06,740
we had a

1134
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:09,839
bodybuilder uh personal fitness trainer

1135
00:49:16,370 --> 00:49:13,440
so it it it did run that that gamut now

1136
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:16,380
in my communications with imprisoned

1137
00:49:19,809 --> 00:49:18,720
Ambler members I mean I had airline

1138
00:49:22,569 --> 00:49:19,819
pilots

1139
00:49:27,370 --> 00:49:22,579
School administrators

1140
00:49:31,730 --> 00:49:27,380
ministers uh barely literate people

1141
00:49:35,329 --> 00:49:31,740
foster parents I mean it just it

1142
00:49:38,030 --> 00:49:35,339
just ran the the entire educational

1143
00:49:39,829 --> 00:49:38,040
gamut and economic gamut

1144
00:49:42,770 --> 00:49:39,839
you know you talked about all the

1145
00:49:46,430 --> 00:49:42,780
correspondence that you did with these

1146
00:49:48,710 --> 00:49:46,440
inmates and these other uh members can

1147
00:49:50,990 --> 00:49:48,720
you speak to anything about it because

1148
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:51,000
you did speak to the extent to which

1149
00:49:55,430 --> 00:49:53,040
they go to hide this Behavior because

1150
00:49:58,370 --> 00:49:55,440
not only is it criminal but the scorn

1151
00:50:00,710 --> 00:49:58,380
that it gets just from the public is I

1152
00:50:04,370 --> 00:50:00,720
mean you'll have I'm sure you've worked

1153
00:50:06,410 --> 00:50:04,380
on other cases with Mafia organized

1154
00:50:07,849 --> 00:50:06,420
crime where people are more or less kind

1155
00:50:09,290 --> 00:50:07,859
of proud as long as they don't get

1156
00:50:12,770 --> 00:50:09,300
caught of the fact that they have this

1157
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:12,780
Association not so much the case here so

1158
00:50:17,089 --> 00:50:14,880
can you speak to coded speech coded

1159
00:50:18,530 --> 00:50:17,099
emails coded communication that kind of

1160
00:50:19,849 --> 00:50:18,540
thing

1161
00:50:22,430 --> 00:50:19,859
yeah

1162
00:50:25,609 --> 00:50:22,440
um you know we

1163
00:50:27,230 --> 00:50:25,619
we did have in in some of the

1164
00:50:31,490 --> 00:50:27,240
communication one of the guys that we

1165
00:50:33,470 --> 00:50:31,500
ended up convicting was a uh a former

1166
00:50:37,190 --> 00:50:33,480
special ed teacher he ended up getting

1167
00:50:40,609 --> 00:50:37,200
30 years in our investigation but when

1168
00:50:44,210 --> 00:50:40,619
they searched his trash they found uh

1169
00:50:49,309 --> 00:50:44,220
Communications like I met a or I saw a

1170
00:50:52,609 --> 00:50:49,319
Sidewinder today uh as with like a size

1171
00:50:54,650 --> 00:50:52,619
eight and we believed that he was

1172
00:50:57,410 --> 00:50:54,660
speaking in code when he was writing it

1173
00:50:59,329 --> 00:50:57,420
in the in the letters that that I was

1174
00:51:02,089 --> 00:50:59,339
getting back and forth with these guys

1175
00:51:06,109 --> 00:51:02,099
in the emails they would also they were

1176
00:51:09,589 --> 00:51:06,119
talking uh talking in code in fact part

1177
00:51:11,390 --> 00:51:09,599
of our sting was uh when we they had

1178
00:51:14,089 --> 00:51:11,400
originally set it up they wanted to go

1179
00:51:17,150 --> 00:51:14,099
down to Costa Rica to see if they could

1180
00:51:19,970 --> 00:51:17,160
find some boys down there well the FBI

1181
00:51:21,950 --> 00:51:19,980
kind of we want to be in charge of this

1182
00:51:24,650 --> 00:51:21,960
so I told them that I was aware of a

1183
00:51:26,809 --> 00:51:24,660
place in Ensenada down below Ensenada

1184
00:51:30,170 --> 00:51:26,819
that we could go so it was always

1185
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:30,180
referred to as a fishing trip uh that

1186
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:32,400
that we were going to as opposed to

1187
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:35,520
going down to to have little boys but

1188
00:51:40,250 --> 00:51:37,920
yeah so there was the there was coded

1189
00:51:41,690 --> 00:51:40,260
messages that they used in in their

1190
00:51:43,329 --> 00:51:41,700
discussions with

1191
00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:43,339
with each other

1192
00:51:50,930 --> 00:51:47,760
and in in our written communication

1193
00:51:52,670 --> 00:51:50,940
Bob let's talk about evil the title of

1194
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:52,680
your book is the last Undercover the

1195
00:51:58,370 --> 00:51:54,960
true story and FBI agent's dangerous

1196
00:51:59,329 --> 00:51:58,380
dance with evil you're a Christian I am

1197
00:52:01,670 --> 00:51:59,339
not

1198
00:52:03,770 --> 00:52:01,680
but I believe there's evil I believe

1199
00:52:06,170 --> 00:52:03,780
there's evil both in this world and

1200
00:52:07,609 --> 00:52:06,180
Beyond this world whatever we understand

1201
00:52:09,589 --> 00:52:07,619
that to be

1202
00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:09,599
here's the question though

1203
00:52:17,390 --> 00:52:13,140
do you think our inability our apparent

1204
00:52:20,150 --> 00:52:17,400
inability to deal with that idea that

1205
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:20,160
there is an evil or even to address

1206
00:52:25,849 --> 00:52:22,800
these topics from some kind of spiritual

1207
00:52:28,549 --> 00:52:25,859
perspective spiritual Dimension do you

1208
00:52:32,510 --> 00:52:28,559
think that prevents us or inhibits us

1209
00:52:35,089 --> 00:52:32,520
from really making progress on some kind

1210
00:52:37,670 --> 00:52:35,099
of solution some kind of better way of

1211
00:52:40,010 --> 00:52:37,680
dealing with this

1212
00:52:43,730 --> 00:52:40,020
well I think with a lot of issues that's

1213
00:52:45,890 --> 00:52:43,740
that's true we're we are afraid we're

1214
00:52:48,410 --> 00:52:45,900
afraid to speak out because it's not

1215
00:52:51,230 --> 00:52:48,420
politically correct or because we're

1216
00:52:53,329 --> 00:52:51,240
viewed as being judgmental I just I do

1217
00:52:55,910 --> 00:52:53,339
believe there's certain conduct that

1218
00:52:59,750 --> 00:52:55,920
that is evil and should be labeled as

1219
00:53:01,069 --> 00:52:59,760
such and we we shouldn't be afraid to

1220
00:53:04,150 --> 00:53:01,079
talk about it

1221
00:53:06,290 --> 00:53:04,160
um I mean when you you look at

1222
00:53:08,290 --> 00:53:06,300
kind of going back to this whole

1223
00:53:11,450 --> 00:53:08,300
pedophilia and and

1224
00:53:14,349 --> 00:53:11,460
making that a civil rights issue I think

1225
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:14,359
once that has made a civil rights issue

1226
00:53:20,930 --> 00:53:18,240
it's going to make a huge change as to

1227
00:53:21,950 --> 00:53:20,940
how this is viewed uh who would have

1228
00:53:24,130 --> 00:53:21,960
guessed

1229
00:53:26,829 --> 00:53:24,140
three or four years ago

1230
00:53:29,630 --> 00:53:26,839
that we would be talking about

1231
00:53:35,150 --> 00:53:29,640
transsexuals and men being allowed to go

1232
00:53:38,530 --> 00:53:35,160
into the restrooms of women now

1233
00:53:40,849 --> 00:53:38,540
we talk about that not because of

1234
00:53:43,430 --> 00:53:40,859
transsexual but because it's a civil

1235
00:53:44,930 --> 00:53:43,440
right because the the idea that well

1236
00:53:46,849 --> 00:53:44,940
there are people that are this way that

1237
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:46,859
are born this way we shouldn't be

1238
00:53:52,010 --> 00:53:49,920
judgmental because they this is the way

1239
00:53:54,230 --> 00:53:52,020
they are created so we should allow this

1240
00:53:57,109 --> 00:53:54,240
that's what the whole movement is with

1241
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:57,119
this this pedophilia as I see it it's

1242
00:54:02,329 --> 00:54:00,240
because they're saying well people are

1243
00:54:05,870 --> 00:54:02,339
born this way or people choose to be

1244
00:54:07,910 --> 00:54:05,880
this way and who are we to judge we can

1245
00:54:11,450 --> 00:54:07,920
look at other societies where this is

1246
00:54:14,750 --> 00:54:11,460
okay and it's it's and I saw this in

1247
00:54:17,390 --> 00:54:14,760
NAMBLA it's they are blaming a

1248
00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:17,400
moralistic society for making this

1249
00:54:22,069 --> 00:54:18,960
behavior that was

1250
00:54:25,069 --> 00:54:22,079
so prevalent in the Greek society in

1251
00:54:28,010 --> 00:54:25,079
ancient Greek society and uh in

1252
00:54:29,990 --> 00:54:28,020
societies even today and other

1253
00:54:32,569 --> 00:54:30,000
essentially third world countries where

1254
00:54:35,930 --> 00:54:32,579
this is permitted that so it should be

1255
00:54:40,789 --> 00:54:38,630
right so I think we're kind of almost

1256
00:54:43,970 --> 00:54:40,799
there on the same page I mean there is

1257
00:54:46,190 --> 00:54:43,980
this kind of secular atheist really

1258
00:54:49,370 --> 00:54:46,200
nonsense I mean to 90 percent of people

1259
00:54:52,370 --> 00:54:49,380
if you go and poll people any way you

1260
00:54:54,890 --> 00:54:52,380
can 90 of them say in some general sense

1261
00:54:57,470 --> 00:54:54,900
I believe in God whatever that means or

1262
00:54:59,089 --> 00:54:57,480
I believe that there's a good evil that

1263
00:55:01,370 --> 00:54:59,099
there's some kind of morality you know

1264
00:55:03,829 --> 00:55:01,380
and I don't know the statistics but I'm

1265
00:55:06,230 --> 00:55:03,839
sure that if you pulled those same

1266
00:55:10,490 --> 00:55:06,240
people about whether or not there's a

1267
00:55:13,370 --> 00:55:10,500
morality issue with 50 year old men

1268
00:55:15,410 --> 00:55:13,380
having sex with 10 year old boys I think

1269
00:55:16,690 --> 00:55:15,420
you'd have the same kind of numbers you

1270
00:55:20,750 --> 00:55:16,700
know 99

1271
00:55:22,670 --> 00:55:20,760
so this is some kind of nonsense that I

1272
00:55:25,789 --> 00:55:22,680
don't know how it gets Advanced because

1273
00:55:28,609 --> 00:55:25,799
no sane person is thinking that this is

1274
00:55:32,030 --> 00:55:28,619
a civil rights issue or that this

1275
00:55:34,250 --> 00:55:32,040
secular atheist kind of you know there

1276
00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:34,260
is no possible way that we could get to

1277
00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:36,240
the the bottom of whether there there's

1278
00:55:40,670 --> 00:55:38,400
a right or wrong this issue in

1279
00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:40,680
particular really brings it into Focus

1280
00:55:47,210 --> 00:55:43,680
because you couldn't get one out of a

1281
00:55:50,030 --> 00:55:47,220
hundred people to buy that at some point

1282
00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:50,040
the majority the vast majority of us

1283
00:55:55,849 --> 00:55:53,040
recognize perversion in this particular

1284
00:55:59,450 --> 00:55:55,859
case of the eight members that we

1285
00:56:03,829 --> 00:55:59,460
convicted uh seven that agreed to go on

1286
00:56:05,210 --> 00:56:03,839
this little jaunt down to Mexico every

1287
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:05,220
one of them

1288
00:56:11,150 --> 00:56:08,880
spoke of having anal sex with 10 to 12

1289
00:56:15,349 --> 00:56:11,160
year old boys that's what they wanted to

1290
00:56:17,809 --> 00:56:15,359
do uh I I don't know how anyone

1291
00:56:21,650 --> 00:56:17,819
just as you had said earlier Alex how

1292
00:56:24,530 --> 00:56:21,660
can anyone say that is not evil that

1293
00:56:27,770 --> 00:56:24,540
that's okay if the boys say it's okay

1294
00:56:29,690 --> 00:56:27,780
how do you how do you even justify that

1295
00:56:31,549 --> 00:56:29,700
and I'd go one step further in and I

1296
00:56:35,150 --> 00:56:31,559
don't want to push you into saying this

1297
00:56:38,270 --> 00:56:35,160
but I think it's evil in this spiritual

1298
00:56:40,670 --> 00:56:38,280
way that we don't totally understand I

1299
00:56:43,250 --> 00:56:40,680
mean you and I might not see totally eye

1300
00:56:47,750 --> 00:56:43,260
to eye on that but I think there's a

1301
00:56:50,150 --> 00:56:47,760
spiritual Force here at play and I think

1302
00:56:54,109 --> 00:56:50,160
it's influencing and it's not just

1303
00:56:57,170 --> 00:56:54,119
people who identify as being uh Satanic

1304
00:56:59,329 --> 00:56:57,180
ritual satanic kind of abusers it's

1305
00:57:01,569 --> 00:56:59,339
people who don't identify to that but

1306
00:57:04,190 --> 00:57:01,579
are still somehow being influenced to

1307
00:57:05,930 --> 00:57:04,200
engage in this Behavior now that's my

1308
00:57:07,670 --> 00:57:05,940
opinion I don't want to hang that on you

1309
00:57:11,450 --> 00:57:07,680
but I think until we are at least

1310
00:57:13,549 --> 00:57:11,460
willing to explore that possibility I

1311
00:57:14,990 --> 00:57:13,559
just think we'd have zero chance zero

1312
00:57:17,870 --> 00:57:15,000
chance of really getting our arms around

1313
00:57:19,609 --> 00:57:17,880
this yeah

1314
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:19,619
yeah okay I'm not going to lead you into

1315
00:57:23,450 --> 00:57:21,119
that one unless you have anything to say

1316
00:57:26,030 --> 00:57:23,460
about that no huh

1317
00:57:27,170 --> 00:57:26,040
okay so you one last thing on this case

1318
00:57:28,250 --> 00:57:27,180
and then I want to talk about some of

1319
00:57:29,569 --> 00:57:28,260
the other groups you're involved with

1320
00:57:32,270 --> 00:57:29,579
and actually trying to make a difference

1321
00:57:35,210 --> 00:57:32,280
but I I know this is a horribly serious

1322
00:57:37,430 --> 00:57:35,220
issue but I got such a chuckle out of

1323
00:57:39,470 --> 00:57:37,440
the way you kind of introduced I guess

1324
00:57:42,049 --> 00:57:39,480
you call it Gallows humor in some of

1325
00:57:43,490 --> 00:57:42,059
this you're a fantastic writer very

1326
00:57:45,049 --> 00:57:43,500
accomplished you haven't only written

1327
00:57:46,670 --> 00:57:45,059
this book but you've written other very

1328
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:46,680
successful books and you're very

1329
00:57:52,010 --> 00:57:49,200
accomplished at that but you wound up

1330
00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:52,020
writing articles for these folks to

1331
00:57:56,690 --> 00:57:54,000
somehow work your way into this what is

1332
00:57:58,010 --> 00:57:56,700
this one castration myth or Miracle I

1333
00:58:00,470 --> 00:57:58,020
don't know what the title is I know when

1334
00:58:05,809 --> 00:58:00,480
I heard it I just couldn't stop laughing

1335
00:58:06,890 --> 00:58:05,819
yeah uh castration myth or magic and uh

1336
00:58:08,510 --> 00:58:06,900
I

1337
00:58:12,049 --> 00:58:08,520
it just

1338
00:58:15,829 --> 00:58:13,789
seen this I'm sure your wife sees this

1339
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:15,839
with what she's gone been through with

1340
00:58:22,250 --> 00:58:19,680
in forensic psychology but humor is is a

1341
00:58:26,030 --> 00:58:22,260
great stress reliever and so I

1342
00:58:28,010 --> 00:58:26,040
I use that and I I believe that as as a

1343
00:58:30,950 --> 00:58:28,020
leader it's important that that you

1344
00:58:32,690 --> 00:58:30,960
provide humor and and a relaxed

1345
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:32,700
atmosphere in which you can work and

1346
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:35,040
whether it's Gallows humor whether it's

1347
00:58:40,490 --> 00:58:37,920
combat humor uh whatever it is you've

1348
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:40,500
gotta you just have to laugh to to allow

1349
00:58:46,430 --> 00:58:44,160
this so that was yeah I wrote that one

1350
00:58:48,730 --> 00:58:46,440
of the things I used to do in in most of

1351
00:58:52,370 --> 00:58:48,740
my undercover assignments I I use music

1352
00:58:55,670 --> 00:58:52,380
and I would play I had an international

1353
00:58:58,130 --> 00:58:55,680
weapons case where we were dealing with

1354
00:59:00,650 --> 00:58:58,140
a 60 million dollar conspiracy for

1355
00:59:02,690 --> 00:59:00,660
shoulders fire missiles about six or

1356
00:59:04,190 --> 00:59:02,700
seven times that the main target of our

1357
00:59:06,710 --> 00:59:04,200
investigation when he got into my

1358
00:59:09,410 --> 00:59:06,720
undercover car every time he got into

1359
00:59:12,349 --> 00:59:09,420
the car I had it queued to the Charlie

1360
00:59:14,690 --> 00:59:12,359
Daniels song uneasy writer and the line

1361
00:59:17,210 --> 00:59:14,700
that you hear on the first the first

1362
00:59:20,030 --> 00:59:17,220
line on every undercover tape that you

1363
00:59:21,589 --> 00:59:20,040
hear it's Charlie Daniels saying don't

1364
00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:21,599
you know what this man's a spy he's

1365
00:59:27,829 --> 00:59:24,660
undercover each for the FBI and that's a

1366
00:59:30,109 --> 00:59:27,839
line right from uneasy Rider and I when

1367
00:59:31,010 --> 00:59:30,119
I had the bad guys in the car I would be

1368
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:31,020
playing

1369
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:34,319
Folsom Prison Blues and Jailhouse Rock

1370
00:59:41,329 --> 00:59:37,920
anything that had a prison theme I I

1371
00:59:42,770 --> 00:59:41,339
would play it uh when one of the NAMBLA

1372
00:59:44,990 --> 00:59:42,780
members got into my car and he was

1373
00:59:49,130 --> 00:59:45,000
actually an ordained minister

1374
00:59:52,549 --> 00:59:49,140
I had to I had a cue to uh Charlie

1375
00:59:54,470 --> 00:59:52,559
Daniels song called Simple Man and it

1376
00:59:56,870 --> 00:59:54,480
essentially the line is we should take

1377
00:59:58,910 --> 00:59:56,880
these child molesters out to the swamp

1378
01:00:00,530 --> 00:59:58,920
put them on their knees in time to a

1379
01:00:03,890 --> 01:00:00,540
stump and let the alligators and the

1380
01:00:05,770 --> 01:00:03,900
bugs do all the rest so I was I was

1381
01:00:08,930 --> 01:00:05,780
always trying to uh

1382
01:00:11,329 --> 01:00:08,940
kind of I had my own soundtrack when I

1383
01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:11,339
was doing it I I bought two kilos of

1384
01:00:16,609 --> 01:00:14,400
crystal meth from a guy and just I had

1385
01:00:18,049 --> 01:00:16,619
it timed perfectly so just as he was

1386
01:00:21,589 --> 01:00:18,059
handing it to me

1387
01:00:24,530 --> 01:00:21,599
and explaining it and the details of the

1388
01:00:26,210 --> 01:00:24,540
of the case I had Harold Melville in the

1389
01:00:29,329 --> 01:00:26,220
Blue Notes singing if you don't know me

1390
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:29,339
by now you'll never ever know that so

1391
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:31,760
so so Bob you've written this book

1392
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:33,839
amongst other books that you've written

1393
01:00:41,089 --> 01:00:36,960
the last undercover people can find it

1394
01:00:42,710 --> 01:00:41,099
on at bobhamer.net you're also tell us a

1395
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:42,720
little bit about your work with this

1396
01:00:55,010 --> 01:00:45,599
group Veterans for child rescue and what

1397
01:00:59,450 --> 01:00:57,710
created his work I'm I'm sure most of

1398
01:01:01,849 --> 01:00:59,460
your listeners are familiar with him if

1399
01:01:04,309 --> 01:01:01,859
not he's former member of SEAL Team Six

1400
01:01:08,270 --> 01:01:04,319
he was a marine first then a member of

1401
01:01:11,089 --> 01:01:08,280
SEAL Team Six been a U.S air marshal uh

1402
01:01:13,430 --> 01:01:11,099
involved with some

1403
01:01:16,430 --> 01:01:13,440
television shows that both as a

1404
01:01:17,870 --> 01:01:16,440
technical visor he was involved in a in

1405
01:01:21,470 --> 01:01:17,880
a series in which they went after

1406
01:01:25,250 --> 01:01:21,480
Predators uh animal predators over in

1407
01:01:27,170 --> 01:01:25,260
Africa and he he just has a passion to

1408
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:27,180
to save children and to help children

1409
01:01:32,930 --> 01:01:30,240
and he started this group it's it's vets

1410
01:01:36,049 --> 01:01:32,940
for childrescue.org

1411
01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:36,059
and he's what he wants to do is to go

1412
01:01:41,109 --> 01:01:38,400
after he wants to expose this whole

1413
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:41,119
issue of child abuse

1414
01:01:47,210 --> 01:01:45,119
and what we're finding is that you know

1415
01:01:49,250 --> 01:01:47,220
there are people that are getting away

1416
01:01:52,130 --> 01:01:49,260
with this because of their position in

1417
01:01:53,150 --> 01:01:52,140
society and obviously there have been

1418
01:01:55,490 --> 01:01:53,160
recent

1419
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:55,500
people coming out in Hollywood talking

1420
01:02:00,650 --> 01:01:57,839
about the the pedophile issue in

1421
01:02:02,390 --> 01:02:00,660
Hollywood and the child abuse that uh

1422
01:02:05,089 --> 01:02:02,400
some some are getting caught and some

1423
01:02:09,130 --> 01:02:05,099
aren't and I think Craig wants to shine

1424
01:02:12,349 --> 01:02:09,140
a light on this whole child abuse issue

1425
01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:12,359
uh it is it should be our mission it

1426
01:02:17,150 --> 01:02:14,400
should be each of our missions to

1427
01:02:18,950 --> 01:02:17,160
protect our children and uh you know as

1428
01:02:22,130 --> 01:02:18,960
try it as it may sound they are our

1429
01:02:23,870 --> 01:02:22,140
future and if we don't protect them who

1430
01:02:27,049 --> 01:02:23,880
is and so that's what he wants to do

1431
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:27,059
with vets for child rescue he's uh it's

1432
01:02:32,930 --> 01:02:30,240
it's a 501c you can donate to it the

1433
01:02:35,329 --> 01:02:32,940
idea is that he wants to start first for

1434
01:02:36,710 --> 01:02:35,339
the documentary identifying the issues

1435
01:02:40,069 --> 01:02:36,720
and then

1436
01:02:41,870 --> 01:02:40,079
hmm I hope that this can be picked up

1437
01:02:45,170 --> 01:02:41,880
and and go into a series where they

1438
01:02:47,390 --> 01:02:45,180
would be targeting pedophiles and and

1439
01:02:49,309 --> 01:02:47,400
exposing them

1440
01:02:51,109 --> 01:02:49,319
well it's important work and as we said

1441
01:02:53,870 --> 01:02:51,119
early on I mean you're to be commended

1442
01:02:55,789 --> 01:02:53,880
well your service is great but then you

1443
01:02:58,130 --> 01:02:55,799
know your willingness to go to be that

1444
01:03:00,049 --> 01:02:58,140
guy that when they came out to the pool

1445
01:03:01,730 --> 01:03:00,059
there and said he'll take this case to

1446
01:03:04,730 --> 01:03:01,740
take it on because it's

1447
01:03:07,089 --> 01:03:04,740
it's not easy I'm sure it crushes a lot

1448
01:03:09,349 --> 01:03:07,099
of soul crushes a lot of people so

1449
01:03:12,430 --> 01:03:09,359
that's awesome

1450
01:03:14,990 --> 01:03:12,440
well you know Alex is this was

1451
01:03:17,870 --> 01:03:15,000
as I said earlier this is my most

1452
01:03:20,809 --> 01:03:17,880
difficult case this was because it

1453
01:03:23,569 --> 01:03:20,819
really I posed as a contract killer I I

1454
01:03:25,549 --> 01:03:23,579
posed as a drug dealer and when when

1455
01:03:27,770 --> 01:03:25,559
you're a contract killer I mean you

1456
01:03:29,390 --> 01:03:27,780
don't care whether if someone's hiring

1457
01:03:31,190 --> 01:03:29,400
me they don't care whether I'm

1458
01:03:34,190 --> 01:03:31,200
republican or democrat or I like

1459
01:03:36,289 --> 01:03:34,200
football or the ballet uh they just want

1460
01:03:38,089 --> 01:03:36,299
to know that I can you know if they're

1461
01:03:40,490 --> 01:03:38,099
hiring me to kill someone that I can do

1462
01:03:43,250 --> 01:03:40,500
it uh you know in my undercover role let

1463
01:03:45,529 --> 01:03:43,260
me make that clear to your listeners uh

1464
01:03:48,289 --> 01:03:45,539
the same with a drug dealer drug dealers

1465
01:03:50,750 --> 01:03:48,299
don't really care what you're what your

1466
01:03:53,390 --> 01:03:50,760
beliefs are as long as you have the

1467
01:03:56,089 --> 01:03:53,400
money to purchase the drugs but in this

1468
01:03:58,250 --> 01:03:56,099
particular case in the NAMBLA case I had

1469
01:04:00,770 --> 01:03:58,260
to think like them I had to talk like

1470
01:04:03,770 --> 01:04:00,780
them I had to act like them a good

1471
01:04:06,770 --> 01:04:03,780
example was uh the the dentist that I

1472
01:04:09,309 --> 01:04:06,780
talked about he he bragged about how he

1473
01:04:12,950 --> 01:04:09,319
had taped a Sylvan Learning commercial

1474
01:04:15,230 --> 01:04:12,960
and not because he thought it could help

1475
01:04:16,730 --> 01:04:15,240
as kids learn how to read better it was

1476
01:04:19,130 --> 01:04:16,740
because he was in love with the little

1477
01:04:22,609 --> 01:04:19,140
boy on the commercial these members love

1478
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:22,619
the uh the the the movie Lord of the

1479
01:04:26,450 --> 01:04:24,720
Flies because it was a bunch of little

1480
01:04:29,270 --> 01:04:26,460
boys running around in their underwear

1481
01:04:32,870 --> 01:04:29,280
so I had to think like that and had to

1482
01:04:35,150 --> 01:04:32,880
and so it made it very difficult uh I'm

1483
01:04:37,430 --> 01:04:35,160
a raging heterosexual I've been married

1484
01:04:39,890 --> 01:04:37,440
for 43 years I've never cheated on my

1485
01:04:43,329 --> 01:04:39,900
wife but one of the meetings we had down

1486
01:04:46,910 --> 01:04:43,339
in Boca Raton Florida it was a beautiful

1487
01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:46,920
evening women were running around in

1488
01:04:52,730 --> 01:04:50,220
Beachwear I mean gorgeous women and I

1489
01:04:55,730 --> 01:04:52,740
couldn't look at them because I was a I

1490
01:04:57,230 --> 01:04:55,740
was a boy lover I was a BL and while we

1491
01:04:59,569 --> 01:04:57,240
were sitting out there on the outdoor

1492
01:05:01,609 --> 01:04:59,579
patio of a restaurant and these women

1493
01:05:04,190 --> 01:05:01,619
are parading up and down the street

1494
01:05:06,410 --> 01:05:04,200
these guys are going oh my gosh look at

1495
01:05:08,270 --> 01:05:06,420
that kid in the blue shirt this is what

1496
01:05:11,089 --> 01:05:08,280
I want to do to him let's play The

1497
01:05:13,190 --> 01:05:11,099
Dating Game uh who do you want to ask

1498
01:05:14,990 --> 01:05:13,200
out and who do you want to do who do you

1499
01:05:18,710 --> 01:05:15,000
want to do and that's what they were

1500
01:05:21,710 --> 01:05:18,720
talking about so that whole line I'm I'm

1501
01:05:24,650 --> 01:05:21,720
sitting there I have to be focused like

1502
01:05:27,470 --> 01:05:24,660
them and think like them and I can't get

1503
01:05:30,230 --> 01:05:27,480
caught slipping now I will say on that

1504
01:05:32,089 --> 01:05:30,240
particular day they were arguing about

1505
01:05:34,490 --> 01:05:32,099
where we should go to dinner I mean it

1506
01:05:36,770 --> 01:05:34,500
was it was a group of us who were down

1507
01:05:38,870 --> 01:05:36,780
there where do we go to dinner I did

1508
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:38,880
suggest Hooters and I said you know I

1509
01:05:42,890 --> 01:05:40,319
think that we should go to Hooters

1510
01:05:45,589 --> 01:05:42,900
because the cops have figured no boy

1511
01:05:47,930 --> 01:05:45,599
lovers would ever go to Hooters but I

1512
01:05:49,089 --> 01:05:47,940
was I was voted down on on that

1513
01:05:52,370 --> 01:05:49,099
suggestion

1514
01:05:54,049 --> 01:05:52,380
oh fantastic Our Guest again has been

1515
01:05:57,049 --> 01:05:54,059
Bob Hamer the book you might want to

1516
01:05:58,789 --> 01:05:57,059
check out is the last undercover you can

1517
01:06:02,170 --> 01:05:58,799
get it of course on Amazon and you can

1518
01:06:05,750 --> 01:06:02,180
check out Bob's website Bob Hamer

1519
01:06:08,029 --> 01:06:05,760
h-a-m-e-r dot net Bob fantastic thank

1520
01:06:10,370 --> 01:06:08,039
you so much for joining me today

1521
01:06:12,950 --> 01:06:10,380
Alex I appreciate you having me on and

1522
01:06:14,809 --> 01:06:12,960
uh thanks for thanks for talking about

1523
01:06:17,210 --> 01:06:14,819
this topic it's not one that a lot of

1524
01:06:19,370 --> 01:06:17,220
people want to talk about and uh it's

1525
01:06:21,289 --> 01:06:19,380
one that that we need to know we need to

1526
01:06:23,210 --> 01:06:21,299
protect our children and I appreciate

1527
01:06:25,250 --> 01:06:23,220
you doing this

1528
01:06:27,410 --> 01:06:25,260
thanks again to Bob Hamer for joining me

1529
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:27,420
today on skeptico I said I'd have a

1530
01:06:30,650 --> 01:06:29,039
couple of additional thoughts let me

1531
01:06:32,089 --> 01:06:30,660
throw those out in the form of a

1532
01:06:34,130 --> 01:06:32,099
question the kind that I usually tee up

1533
01:06:37,130 --> 01:06:34,140
at the end of these interviews do you

1534
01:06:39,289 --> 01:06:37,140
think people are ever influenced by evil

1535
01:06:40,910 --> 01:06:39,299
spirits now I know that question's

1536
01:06:43,309 --> 01:06:40,920
pretty Stark and it probably throws

1537
01:06:46,309 --> 01:06:43,319
people off but that's what I took 20

1538
01:06:50,750 --> 01:06:46,319
minutes of an intro to explain why that

1539
01:06:52,549 --> 01:06:50,760
question is I think a natural result of

1540
01:06:54,529 --> 01:06:52,559
all these shows all these investigations

1541
01:06:56,569 --> 01:06:54,539
we've done of consciousness of

1542
01:06:58,670 --> 01:06:56,579
near-death experience of Psy research of

1543
01:07:01,130 --> 01:06:58,680
all that at the end of the day one of

1544
01:07:03,710 --> 01:07:01,140
the questions that falls out is if there

1545
01:07:05,390 --> 01:07:03,720
is this extended Consciousness realm in

1546
01:07:06,770 --> 01:07:05,400
what ways is it influencing this

1547
01:07:09,049 --> 01:07:06,780
material world

1548
01:07:11,990 --> 01:07:09,059
again the advantage of looking at

1549
01:07:13,849 --> 01:07:12,000
pizzagate or Bob's case with NAMBLA is

1550
01:07:18,289 --> 01:07:13,859
that I think we can all agree in these

1551
01:07:20,990 --> 01:07:18,299
cases we're looking at evil the moral

1552
01:07:24,289 --> 01:07:21,000
ambiguity question is really off the

1553
01:07:28,490 --> 01:07:24,299
table there are some people that do

1554
01:07:31,789 --> 01:07:28,500
really really evil things and I suspect

1555
01:07:34,730 --> 01:07:31,799
that there's an asbeloso above kind of

1556
01:07:36,710 --> 01:07:34,740
thing going on here too so we know

1557
01:07:40,069 --> 01:07:36,720
there's evil in this realm in this

1558
01:07:43,329 --> 01:07:40,079
Dimension I'd suggest and I think the

1559
01:07:46,730 --> 01:07:43,339
evidence seems to suggest that that evil

1560
01:07:49,970 --> 01:07:46,740
extends Beyond this Dimension to these

1561
01:07:52,190 --> 01:07:49,980
other extended Consciousness Realms in a

1562
01:07:54,170 --> 01:07:52,200
way that I don't understand and I don't

1563
01:07:56,029 --> 01:07:54,180
think anyone has a total grip on but hey

1564
01:07:57,589 --> 01:07:56,039
that's why we're here that's why you're

1565
01:08:00,289 --> 01:07:57,599
listening to this show that's why I'm

1566
01:08:02,589 --> 01:08:00,299
doing that show let's put our heads

1567
01:08:05,569 --> 01:08:02,599
together and see if we can at least

1568
01:08:07,309 --> 01:08:05,579
nudge a tiny bit closer towards

1569
01:08:09,589 --> 01:08:07,319
something that looks like an answer

1570
01:08:11,569 --> 01:08:09,599
something that Comforts us or at least

1571
01:08:14,450 --> 01:08:11,579
allows us to move forward in our lives

1572
01:08:16,970 --> 01:08:14,460
and make better decisions about what

1573
01:08:20,630 --> 01:08:16,980
path we want to take on this journey me

1574
01:08:23,749 --> 01:08:20,640
that we're all on together hate to get

1575
01:08:25,430 --> 01:08:23,759
super new agey spiritual but I don't

1576
01:08:28,130 --> 01:08:25,440
know where else you can go with this

1577
01:08:30,289 --> 01:08:28,140
kind of stuff so there's a ton of

1578
01:08:32,809 --> 01:08:30,299
questions in there pull them apart if

1579
01:08:34,910 --> 01:08:32,819
you will and shoot me back in email let

1580
01:08:37,490 --> 01:08:34,920
me know what you think join the skeptico

1581
01:08:40,130 --> 01:08:37,500
Forum talk to other like-minded people

1582
01:08:42,769 --> 01:08:40,140
see what you think and if you like this

1583
01:08:45,829 --> 01:08:42,779
show please share it with your friends

1584
01:08:48,530 --> 01:08:45,839
please share it in other places I'd love

1585
01:08:50,809 --> 01:08:48,540
to get as many people as I can into this

1586
01:08:53,630 --> 01:08:50,819
conversation because I think it's an

1587
01:08:56,870 --> 01:08:53,640
important one and stick with me I have

1588
01:08:58,669 --> 01:08:56,880
some very interesting shows coming up I

1589
01:09:01,309 --> 01:08:58,679
always say that but I really do this

1590
01:09:03,890 --> 01:09:01,319
time it's great having you all along

1591
01:09:06,110 --> 01:09:03,900
with me a lot of times I do feel like

1592
01:09:08,570 --> 01:09:06,120
you're right here listening and talking

1593
01:09:11,930 --> 01:09:08,580
with me when I do these shows and that's

1594
01:09:15,229 --> 01:09:11,940
a really really cool feeling until next

1595
01:09:16,460 --> 01:09:15,239
time take care and bye for now